armywife
puppy
My Hailee puppy :)
Posts: 30
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Post by armywife on Jan 28, 2004 2:27:18 GMT -5
What would this include?
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Post by Dobemom on Jan 28, 2004 8:33:12 GMT -5
Positive training implies rewards for good behavior. Negitive inforcement indicates punishment for bad actions. A good training method utilizes BOTH. Do good, get a treat, do bad, get a correction. Nothing can learn by only being rewarded by the right thing (to quote a disliked sourse : imagine trying to learn to drive by only being told what you do right). Likewise, nothing can learn by only being told what's bad. You'd end of afraid of everything. The idea is to TEACH using possitive reinforcement and to correct using negitive. Also, if there is an action that must be extinquished NOW!! (chasing cars, eating out of the trash) then negitive is the ONLY way to stop. How would you teach your dog to leave the trash alone without associating something bad with the trash . Does this help any?
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Post by Willow on Jan 28, 2004 12:38:25 GMT -5
Dobemom is correct. Positive training means just that. Most positive trainer's use a *clicker* and a treat. When the dog does a correct behavior, they *click* and then treat to show the dog what it did was right. If the dog does something we consider to be a *wrong* behavior, (dogs have no concept of right or wrong as we do), they simply ignore the behavior, feeling it is *cruel* to correct a dog in anyway. Some positive trainer's will use a verbal correction, i.e. *NO*, but most don't even use that.
At the very least, training with this method takes months and you seldom end up with a dog that is well trained and will listen to you under all circumstances, and more than likely you will have a very confused dog on your hands, because in order for a dog to learn, they have to be clearly shown what is *right* (praise) and what is *wrong* (*no* and/or a physical collar correction.)
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armywife
puppy
My Hailee puppy :)
Posts: 30
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Post by armywife on Jan 28, 2004 14:09:43 GMT -5
hmm i didnt know people trained like that.
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Post by Willow on Jan 28, 2004 17:14:06 GMT -5
They don't train like that. They attempt to train like that!
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Post by Aussienot on Jan 28, 2004 21:19:41 GMT -5
I guess my confusion is why it is so popular when so few people seem to get results with it.
I only know two dogs that were trained by Purely Positive who are well behaved. I know a ton that know some obedience when they feel like it, but are complete animals when they don't.
I'm all for keeping training happy and upbeat. I'm all for rewards. I think purely positive is great for young puppies and very soft dogs who are praise addicts. But in my mind it has at least one terminal failing as a training system.
There are some behaviors that you just can't ignore, and they won't go away simply because the owner doesn't reward the behavior.
Mouthing, lunging at another dog, getting in the trash, chasing a cat, barking the dog finds those behaviors inheritantly self-rewarding. Dog lies down because he's tired when you've asked him to sit. Rewarding. Dogs repeat what they find rewarding.
I've seen one person click, and have three dogs come running! Would be funny, except purely positive seems to be gaining in strength.
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Post by Willow on Jan 29, 2004 10:45:38 GMT -5
Very good remarks, Aussienot, and right on the $$$.
The reason so many keep trying to train this way and it is gaining strength is because the positive trainer's are convincing people that corrections of any kind went out with the dinosaur's, and along with the people who used them, and that corrections are *inhumane*.
Young people today (a lot anyway) don't believe in dicipline, whether it be a child or dog. They feel it stifles the child's creativity, and from what I have seen, a lot of parents are afraid their children *won't like them* if they dicipline them, therefore the children run the household and they are not capable of making the decisions. They carry that thinking over to their dogs, with the same result.
The positive trainer's are making big bucks because it takes a long time to get anywhere with this type of training and the people who keep going back, eventhough they can see it is not getting results, is because they have more $$$$ than brains.
Added to that is that people don't start training their puppies from day one. It seems the more information there is out there on training, the less people do! By the time they realize something is wrong, because the dog is growling at them when they plead with it to get off the bed/couch so they can sit down or go to bed, the dog has serious problems and needs serious training, but the owner still doesn't realize the problem is with them and that they are too *soft* with the dog, and take him to a positive trainer, because they *could never use a pinch or choke collar on their baby and hurt him*. Never mind the dog has just bitten them bad enough to require stitches. *The poor baby didn't mean it*. (sigh)
If they would only realize that if they began training their puppies when they are young, and yes, with positive training as you said, but show them clearly when they make a mistake, there probably would be no need for pinch collar's and strong corrections when they got older.
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Post by Willow on Jan 29, 2004 12:05:59 GMT -5
Sorry, gals....I have a hard time telling you two (Amyjo/Aussienot) apart for some reason!!
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Post by sibemom on Jan 29, 2004 15:39:30 GMT -5
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Post by Brooke on Jan 29, 2004 15:48:14 GMT -5
I think clickers can be a good thing to use if used in the right way....and as long as you are correcting a dog for the bad things.
I have no patience for people who ignore the bad...
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Post by Ioana on Jan 29, 2004 15:59:40 GMT -5
I agree with Willow - children as well as dogs must be disciplined. I believe that if we use the right strategy the child's creativity won't be stiffled at all. We need to teach them to cooperate with us - show them the reason we don't want them to do certain things. And then repeat over and over ..Of course it would be harder to explain to the dogs why they cannot chase the car p.s. what is a clicker?
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Post by sibemom on Jan 29, 2004 16:17:45 GMT -5
Here I will tell you what a clicker is. Its this plastic "THING" that when you press the middle of it. It makes a clicking sound. Basicly is just distraction training to distract/ and stop the dog from what ever it is it's doing and redirect them to good behavior. They also use it as a reward for good behavior. I just couldnt do this. Most people that train with them don't correct for bad behavior that is why I think they are silly. Il like to use verbal distraction for some issues and then collar correction for the more serious behavior flaws. I always praise and reward for good. I think it's just a matter of choice which method you use.
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Post by amyjo on Jan 29, 2004 16:28:22 GMT -5
The "click" is meant to mark the exact moment the dog did a good thing and then bridge the time gap between the "good thing" and the reward. From a pure behavioral standpoint it makes perfect sense because the closer in time the good thing and the reward is - the faster the dog will learn... But as everyone above has correctly pointed out it only works when you are rewarding a good behavior and does nothing to discourage bad behavoir. I am not about to wait around for my dog not to chase the cat or dig in the trash so I can click at it
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Post by Willow on Jan 29, 2004 16:57:35 GMT -5
A big problem I see with the clicker is unless you hang it around your neck, where is it when you need it? I use a *click* sound with my mouth, like if you were telling a horse to move out....I always have that with me. ;D
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Post by Brooke on Jan 29, 2004 17:29:27 GMT -5
Exactly Loey! Thats why I don't use one. I think its ok to use one and they can be used in a good way but as long as there is a correction for bad behavior...personally I don't think you should depend on them. It isn't necissary to use one so why do it?
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