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Post by Willow on Feb 27, 2004 17:42:48 GMT -5
Even though I consider my dogs pretty well trained and they are never on leash except to go to the Vet, when I take them to a strange area, with a lot of distractions, I don't take any chances and they are on leash!
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Post by Richard on Feb 28, 2004 9:45:12 GMT -5
well to be honest...i've never tried that Well thanks for being honest....while we cannot always predict the things we'll come across while we're walking our dogs, its always best to err on the side of caution and not put the dog in a situation that he/she isn't ready for. This is the foundation of "proofing in all elements". You sound like a very responsible dog owner. This is the one point here, I need to ask you Jessica, how many times do you repeat stay....once twice, several times? I am only asking becuase if you're behind a tree saying stay several times (as I'm reading here) then your dogs will do the down/stay but they think the tree is talking to them!....nah just kidding, but a solid " down/stay" command should only be said once (as with all commands)...there should be no doubt in the dogs mind what you want them to do...creeping or getting up before being released is a definite no-no and needs to be corrected immediately. Doing down/stays around distractions is a lot of work and it sounds like you have a good handle on the situation. My only thought was the "...repeat stay..." comment...if you're needing to repeat it, then they're not listening...you see what I mean? My goal is a "one time" command...if I have to say "sit" to Rocky more than once, he's not listening and I'm not getting my request across....if he busts a down/stay, even if I have to run back 75 feet (while doing outdoor agility/ob) and tell him "..no no no.." as I return him to the down/stay, I will only say it (down/stay) once. It shows that I need him paying attention to me all the time and respond the on the first command. Note: before you say it, I know your dogs are not as headstrong as Rocky is (he came from German Bloodlines) but I still think the idea is the same, laidback or strongheaded, IMHO, when you give a command, your dog should obey it the first time regardles - that is the goal of training and proofing which is the common element that runs through all the different styles of training.And yes, we are always in the training mode around our house...you never stop learning and you never stop training! btw, I think you got a great attitude about training and your dogs. -Richard ps, thanks for the info re your female GSD...the ones we've met (at Rocky's breeders) are all as headstrong as he is....just what he needs for a companion to keep him in line.
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Post by Iluvmypup on Jun 26, 2004 13:31:14 GMT -5
I'm a clicker trainer, and proud of it. ;D And I haven't met one person that didn't use some sort of way to approach a negative behaviour. I think you guys are looking at it this way, but correct me if I'm wrong: Dog goes in trash. Owner ignore it until dog gets out of trash. CLICK! TREAT! That would never work. A clicker trainer will not just IGNORE the bed. They tell the dog what it is supposed to do. In this case, if I had a dog that was digging in the trash, I would attach his leash, and walk him by the trash. If he ever showed interest in the trash, I would walk in the other direction, and "click" as soon as his head turned away from the trash to follow me. "GOOD JOB!" You'd pair that with a "LEAVE IT" command, and pretty soon you'd have a dog that you could command to leave the trash alone and either run to you or go play or lie down, or whatever you want him to do. Clicker training does work. Not everyone does it correctly though, and thats when it doesn't work. I've met some people that just click in order to sort of "bribe" their dog away from doing something wrong. Another example of clicker training would be if a dog were jumping. You would, in this case, ignore the bad. Totally don't look at the dog until he stops jumping. Click when all four feet are on the ground. Eventually you'll want him to sit to greet people, but thats later on. Just thought I'd throw in a couple of clicker examples.
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Post by Willow on Jun 26, 2004 15:12:39 GMT -5
No, Luv, I think we all pretty much understand the way proper clicker training works, but we just feel, that for the most part, "bad" behavior should never be ignored, because how do they know it's "bad" if they aren't shown it is?
In the lst example you give, of the trash thing. Sounds pretty reasonable, actually, but I don't think the click step is necessary. Why not just tell the dog to "Leave it", walk him away and say, "Good dog?"
In the other example of jumping up on people. Why not just teach the dog to "sit" right away and tell him to "sit" before he jumps on someone? Again, by waiting for him to jump up on someone, and then ignoring the behavior, it is telling him it's o.k. to do it, and I don't understand the "ignore, wait until he has 4 on the floor, click/treat". Seems like a lot of un-necessary steps as well as encouraging the wrong behavior to me.
I always teach the "sit" command first with puppy or older dog (and I even use treats), then, as I said, I ask them to "sit" when greeting me or other's so the jumping up is never started in the first place. It is much less time consuming.
You can also use the " down" command and most of us do have our dogs " down" when company comes, but I use the "sit" first, because it is the easiest to teach.
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Post by Aussienot on Jun 26, 2004 17:33:36 GMT -5
The clicker can mark a behavior quicker than many people can think. Assuming you have the clicker in hand, you can click faster than your brain can process the many steps of saying Leave it, leading the dog away . . . Most of us have done a lot of dog training with a range of dogs, and a range training techniques, so what you would do in that split second comes naturally and easily.
But for non-experienced people, there can be a moment of well intentioned panic. I think, as Richard posted earlier, that for some people who have trouble with the whole idea of training: the meek, rank beginners, the uncoordinated, the romantics, the kind of befuddled pet owners who find their way to group obedience, a clicker is an easy and non-confrontational tool to use. It simplifies things.
I believe the dog can recognise the 'click' sound more easily than various word in human speach, so the dog may seem to respond more quickly to some types of training.
Maybe we should start a new thread of Clicker Training. It is usually paired with purely positive, but not always, and there are new developments coming out all the time.
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Post by Iluvmypup on Jun 29, 2004 9:39:36 GMT -5
Willow---The click marks the exact thing your dog is doing right. The dog learns to associate the click with "ohhh..THATS what she wants me to do!". You COULD use the word "YES" or "good boy", and maybe that dog would learn what it is he has to do. But the clicker, like I already said, marks that exact behaviour and lets the dog know what he is supposed to do. And, you're right about teaching the dog to sit first thing. I made a bit of a mistake on that one. You could still use my technique, but the dog COULD learn that he can jump all he wants as long as he sits and gets treated after. The ignoring method works okay for that if you're not using a clicker. Say for example, if there was a family member coming in the house, and the dog begins to jump all over them...the dog just wants attention, and by not giving it, the dog learns its just not worth it. But, yeah, if you want him to always sit before being greeted by company, teaching him to sit first is the best way. You could teach it by first using family members walk in, bring a treat down to the dogs nose and commanding sit..click, treat. Eventually, you'd have other people doing the same thing...ones that are willing to help and don't mind getting their hands licked from offering treats. ;D Thanks for pointint that out...my mistake.
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Post by sibemom on Jun 29, 2004 10:35:08 GMT -5
This is where I disagree strongly. To ignore behaviors such as jumping on people, is asking for problems. Just like you said teaching sit is the very first thing I do with my dogs along with "Don't charge the door". This does not include allowing them to jump around like fools ignore it and then when they are finally in the mood to sit, treat them, that is crap. When you are working with dogs who have dominance issues or tend to be very pushy, ignoring behaviors such as this can lead to raising a monster. The more you ignore it in their minds you are allowing them to controll the situation and that is not where you want to be. With pup's of course they get excited and want attention and will do anything to get it, that is why you must enforce a fair correction to stop the jumping, mostly I use verbal on young pups but I address the behavior and let them know that this will not be tolerated. The only behavior I ignore is when first crate training a pup. They can whine themselves silly and I ignore that, but when they are quiet I go in and say "GOOD DOG" and take them out. Then they get the idea that quiet gets them out, now of course this is only after they have gone out to go potty, and you know that their whining is just an objection to being crated. How are they going to know it is not acceptable if you ignore it? Their not. Positve renforcement for good behavior and motivational correction for bad, and if you want to throw a clicker in there somewhere great, but there must be a balance and they must understand what you expect of them. If I would have allowed my Sibe to jump all over people or allowed some of the other bad behaviors continue and just kept ignoring them untill he was good and ready to comply, I would have a DOG FROM HELL on my hands. It is because I enforced the good behaviors and corrected the bad that I can take him anywhere, in any situation, and he obeys. Many people have asked me if he is part GSD because his behavior is not typical of the normal husky. He is very composed, calm, and compliant, the reason being I did not ignore one single thing. I was on my toes 24/7. and the payoff was well worth the work
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Post by Iluvmypup on Jun 30, 2004 21:09:21 GMT -5
I'm not saying, ignore all the bad, because that is NOT what I believe in. But say for example if a neighbor walked in the house before you were prepared to get your wild dog (I am NOT saying your dog is wild...just using an example) on-leash, and the dog begins to jump. What does the person do? Pet, pet, pet..'what a cutey!' Now, say the neighbor knew something about training dogs and she walked in and the dog began to jump. The neighbor completely ignores the dog, turning her back if necessary. The dog thinks 'hmm...this isn't working'. The moment he has all four feet on floor, the neighbore pets and praises him. If he dares to jump again, the neighbor ignores him. Pretty soon you'd have yourself a dog that wouldn't think jumping was as much fun. But of course, neighbors, family, and friends don't seem to work like that. In that case, I trained my dog not to jump as a puppy by having him sit before he got pat...ever! Nothing in life is free. If I'm working with an older dog, I'd have him on-leash, and have the person coming in to greet him immediatley bring a treat to his nose and command "SIT!". Good job! Or, you could step on the leash so that when the dog decides to try and jump, he corrects himself by getting a snap on the leash (SEE! I'm not against allll corrections! ;D ) for a dog that really gets hyper and enjoys jumping. I've never had to use that 'snapping method' for any of my dogs, especially the ones I've had from puppies. All the service dog pups have learned from day one that jumping is a 'no-no', and that sitting will get them the attention they want.
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Post by Nicole on Jul 1, 2004 6:16:12 GMT -5
Well then, the truth has finally come out!! ;D You do say no-no and give leash corrections. You use a clicker, we say good girl. You ignore..we don't because that doesn't work on the dogs we have and we don't want confusion or to wait 4 years for a behavior to extinguish. But the differences are not as big as you think. This quote by Max V. Stephanitz sums it up the best.
"The trainer must first learn self-control before he can control the dog. He must always know how to adapt his methods to the nature of the dog."
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Post by Willow on Jul 1, 2004 9:33:30 GMT -5
Or, you could step on the leash so that when the dog decides to try and jump, he corrects himself by getting a snap on the leash (SEE! I'm not against allll corrections! ;D ) for a dog that really gets hyper and enjoys jumping. I've never had to use that 'snapping method' for any of my dogs, especially the ones I've had from puppies. All the service dog pups have learned from day one that jumping is a 'no-no', and that sitting will get them the attention they want. All that clicking/treating led to confusion, I see. We thought you were strickly PP. Training a puppy and training a "Rescue" dog are usually different. I say "usually", because most rescue dogs (at least in the rescue's I was in) were large and out of control by the time they got to us. They will jump on you and pull your arm out of the socket when you try to walk them on a leash. For these types of dogs, a pinch collar is the only thing that gets through to them. I have never had to use a pinch collar on any dog I trained from puppyhood either, but neither did I use a clicker and treats. I used a balance of praise/correction, because I want my dogs to "work" for me because they want my approval, not because they want the treat in my pocket.
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Post by Iluvmypup on Jul 1, 2004 9:49:03 GMT -5
Yes, I understand that some rescue dogs need help with walking on leash. But there is a clicker solution to that as well, believe it or not. ;D
I'm not against using certain amounts of correction, but you won't find me every giving scruff shakes, or using any type of correction collars either.
I work in an animal shelter that currently has three pitbulls and one rottweiler. They're great dogs, but have that leash pulling problem. I've been working with the clicker to teach one of the pits so he can get adopted easier. Things are going great, but I know some people that would have used a choke collar to start off with.
But since the clicker is working, and the dog is having fun, why not do it a simpler easier way? And he won't become dependant on treats for long...I wean them off pretty quickly as soon as the dog has what I want him to learn understood.
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Post by amyjo on Jul 1, 2004 9:58:00 GMT -5
If you have been working on it for a while then it really isn't the simple/easier way now is it? A dog will learn to walk nicely on a prong collar in under 3 minutes. That dog will enjoy his walks as much as a dog that isn't on a prong collar and maybe more because the walkER will enjoy it more.
I am training a neighbor's rottie that was previously abused with a prong and so I appreciate that it does happen - I am training this dog to walk on the leash with a regular collar and it is not simple or easy and it takes soooooo long. ugh.
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Post by Willow on Jul 1, 2004 12:35:54 GMT -5
Yes, I understand that some rescue dogs need help with walking on leash. But there is a clicker solution to that as well, believe it or not. ;D I'm not against using certain amounts of correction, but you won't find me every giving scruff shakes, or using any type of correction collars either. I would be interested in hearing how you would stop a big, powerful dog who has not had enough exercise his whole life, from pulling your arm out of the socket on walks until you get him trained the "positive" way. I would also like to know how long this will take, on average, and if it will then work forever after, like when meeting other dogs on walks etc. Thank you.
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Post by amyjo on Jul 1, 2004 12:48:08 GMT -5
I also have a question and I realize it may sound a bit "snarky" but I really want to know and I think it highlights an important argument so am going to ask. okay?
So you are working with the pulling pit for a "while" weeks, months what?
My question is - he can't (or is unlikey to) get adopted until he learns to walk nice. In my opinion those days spent in the animal shelter are days out of his short life he will never get back. If the concern is "cruelty" or "harsh" treatment - then what is worse? More days in the shelter or a few good self corrections on the prong?
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Post by Iluvmypup on Jul 1, 2004 16:48:14 GMT -5
Hmm?? I've never said I've been working for a 'while'. If I did, please quote me on that. I've been working with him for 3 days. Maybe that seems long to you, considering you could do it in 3 minutes with a prong collar. But since we don't know the history of most of these dogs, any type of correction collar is out of the question. Some have come from abused situations, while others we're unsure of. We just don't take a risk. Adult dogs can take longer to teach to walk loosely on a leash since they've gotten into the bad habit for so long. Instead of typing it all out, do you mind if I just copy it from a website? I'd basically say the same thing anyways. I know, I'm lazy... Get your dog to walk without pulling! But how? We are masters at allowing our dogs to drag us down the street. The most asked question at obedience classes and private consultations is " how can I get my dog not to pull on his leash?" As far as dogs and leashes are concerned, we want to arrange things so that loose leashes "pay off" and tight leashes don't. Historically trainers encouraged folks to act like a tree the moment their dog began to pull on the leash. This method does work nicely with puppies, but it just doesn't work for the adolescent or older dog who has learned to pull you around. The following method requires first, that all or most reinforcement will come from behind you and second, that you will toss the food to the ground -not far- so the dog has to look for it. Loose leash walking is going to begin as a game. Here are a few simple steps you will train BEFORE you do any walking with your dog: Put your dog's leash on and just stand still. When your dog releases the tension on the leash, click and show him the treat in your hand. Let him see you place the treat on the ground by the outside of your left foot. Once he's eaten the treat, move to the end of the range of the leash so it is taut and stand quietly. When he moves to release the tension, click. Show him the treat and place it by your left foot. You don't care about eye contact. What you are teaching is that releasing the leash tension gets clicked and treated. Do this a number of times. Continue to stand now that your dog is not pulling. Now you will click for eye contact. After the click, treat by your left foot. Remember after he has finished eating the treat to move to the end of the leash. Click and treat three times for looking at you while on a loose leash. Again, just standing with your dog on a loose leash, looking at you, toss your treats right past your dog's nose to about three feet away. When dog eats the treats and comes back to you looking for more, click and treat by placing the food by the outside of your left foot. Move and repeat. Again toss the treat right past your dog's nose. When your dog finishes eating it and turns around to come back to you, you turn your back and start walking. (Just take a few steps in the beginning.) When you dog catches up to you, but before he gets past your pant leg, click and treat. Repeat. Note: Make sure when you toss the food it goes right past the dog's nose. This is the warm-up. Now that you have the dog following you for a few steps it is time to start walking and reinforcing behind or next to you. Continuing the training on the move: Your dog is on leash. You turn away from him and start walking. Your dog follows. As the dog catches up to you and is coming up next to you - maybe even makes eye contact - mark (click) and drop the treat next to your left foot. Don't keep moving and be sure the first few times that you let the dog know that you have food in your hand. Once he's finished his treat, start again. Show him the treat and then turn and take a few steps away from him, walk till he catches up, drop the treat next to you or a little behind. Note: Dropping food next to your side or a little behind helps the dog to stay close to you. It prevents the dog from anticipating and forging ahead. So drop the food behind you or you can even let the dog take it out of your hand behind your back. Don't drop the food so far away that the dog has to drag you to get it. Start again. Begin to walk in such a way that the dog is at an angle beside you or is behind you. As the dog catches up, drop the food behind you (or next to your pant leg). Once the dog has eaten the food and is coming back toward you, start walking away from him again. Try for more steps before dropping. Timing is everything! Don't let the dog get in front of you. If he does, pivot away, wait till he catches up BUT is next to you or slightly behind you (or his nose is at your pant seam), and drop the food. Now it's your job to increase the number of steps before dropping the food behind you. Never drop food if your dog has gotten in front of you. Work towards walking more steps before rewarding. You can vary this and reinforce while he is next to you if you wish, or toss the treat way behind you so the dog has to hunt for it and then reinforce him for catching back up to you. As your dog gets better and you can now walk quite a distance without forging and pulling, don't fail to reward intermittently. For your dog to walk without pulling he has to believe (because you rewarded him) that there is a better chance of good things near you than in the wide world. Use the long line if you have to control your dog and are not taking a walk. Remember if you never let the leash get tight, your dog won't learn that he can pull you. What he doesn't know won't hurt him or you!
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