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Post by Nicole on Jul 1, 2004 17:17:57 GMT -5
That just sounds like such a very drawn out process with the potential for lots of owner frustration.
My dog Petey (soon to be known as Sunny ;D) is 3 years old. He is a Shepherd mix who I have had for about 6 months now. He was a puller. And he is 100lbs of muscle. And I only out weigh him by about 10 lbs. It took me 2 minutes to solve the problem. I didn't stand like a tree. That is not the proper way to train. I made an immediate about face and walked in the opposite direction everytime he hit the end of the leash. I did this about 3 or 4 times with praise for not hitting the end of the leash and he has not pulled since. AND he watches me to see which way I am going to go.
Do you have a problem with my method. If so, what is it? And if not, why wouldn't you opt for the simplicity of it.
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Post by amyjo on Jul 1, 2004 17:19:52 GMT -5
First I apologize for adding the "a while" - I swore I read it - probably my own bias kicking in....
Anyway - how long do you anticpate unil this particular dog is relaible?
Also will this method work for a dog that is higher in prey drive than in food drive?
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Post by sibemom on Jul 1, 2004 17:28:06 GMT -5
Amy I will answer that question with my opinion. A dog with high prey drive is never going to reliable as far as clicker training. Yes I beleive that you could teach loose leash witht the clicker but I don't think it would hold up if the prey drive kicked in. Dogs with that kind of drive need uncomfortable stimulas to correct and positive distraction to redirect the drive. I think all dogs can be taught commands with the clicker but my concern is that are they going to hold up in any situation? I also agree that was a long and drawn out process just to keep it PP.
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Post by Willow on Jul 1, 2004 20:49:13 GMT -5
I agree with what the three of you have said. (Nicki, Amyjo and Ann).
In the time it takes to read the long drawn out instructions, the dog could be reliably and humanely trained not to pull on the leash.
As Ann said, I have no problem training a dog using your method, if you want to take that long. Frankly, at my age, I could croak before I finished the lst lesson!
Secondly, I would be very, very nervous taking a shelter dog such as the ones you described, out in public after clicker training with only me, a leash and flat collar between the dog and every other dog it meets, because as you said, you don't know the background of these dogs. Dogs act very differently in a shelter than they do out on the street with all the distractions etc. around them.
Do you really know how this dog is going to react when it meets other dogs on the street, or "strange" looking/acting people etc.? If that dog should decide to lunge at another dog, or a person, how could you control it with just a clicker and a flat collar?
If I was the person out walking my dog, and you and the one you describe were out walking and it lunged at us and you had no means to control it other than a flat collar, you would have a serious law suit on your hands.
In your determination to not cause the dog(s) any discomfort, you are putting a lot of other dogs and people in potential danger.
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Post by Iluvmypup on Jul 2, 2004 19:02:21 GMT -5
Phew...a lot of replies to post here... ;D First, to answer Nicole---No, I have no problem with your method. Its worked for a lot of dogs I've met. I think it works better then the 'stand like a tree method' for certain dogs. I trained my dog with the 'stand like a tree method' and it worked great, but I know some dogs wouldn't respond to it. I have found this clicker training method to be more reliable with certain dogs though. It may take longer, but once the dog is trained, it works for good with absolutely no corrections needed. amyjo---The pit learned on the first day teaching that being near me was the best thing he could possibly do. Now we're working on distance. So I would say in a weeks time, he'll walk by my side for 5 minutes before getting a treat. Next week he'll be walking for 10 or 15 minutes before getting a treat depending on his progress. The time keeps adding up, so eventually he'll be walking with praise and an occasional treat to keep him interested. And yes, this method will work great for a dog with a high prey drive. We don't suddenly bring these dogs out into the public with a flat collar and see how they react. We take things slow. The dog thats being tested will go in an enclosed kennel area while another dog is brought on-leash next to the cage. If that dog shows any aggression to this on-leash dog, we start from step one. If he shows no aggression, we'll take him out on-leash to see how he reacts. If at any time that dog shows aggression, we start from step one. The same goes for cats, squirrels, chipmunks...we take things slow. If a dog has a high prey drive we start small and work our way big. First we might start with the dog walking on loose leash while someone in the distance bounces a ball...its all about getting the dog accustomed to things like this. Eventually he'll get used to crowds, other dogs, cats (except in some circumstances where dogs must be placed in no dogs/cats home), and hopefully children. You're totally right about not knowing how these dogs might react. But we also want the dogs to listen to us because they were trained, and not by the use of special collars. I'm not saying special collars are WRONG, but not all dog owners know how to use them properly either. If these dogs were to go to a home where the people would rather not use, say, a prong collar, they would end up with an un-trained dog. One jerk on the leash of a prong collar won't teach the dog that lunging at another dog is wrong. Its a constant training thing, just like like anything. Again, I'm not saying theres anything wrong with your training techniques, but we've found the clicker to be most useful in the shelter situation.
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Post by Laura on Jul 2, 2004 22:18:18 GMT -5
;D ;D ;D ;D
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Post by Laura on Jul 2, 2004 23:32:43 GMT -5
Ok, now that I've gotten that out of my system, I'll jump into the fray...... Luv, I have to respectfully disagree with you on the clicker training and a high prey drive dog. I deal with Siberians on a daily basis with my rescue group (Husky House), and after working with literally hundreds of them, there isn't a one I could have sucessfully trained and proofed with a clicker. They have a prey drive like no other (the working line GSD, the BC and Aussie are right up there too ), and there is no way to proof a dog like that without some kind of corrective measures. That is my biggest complaint with PP/clicker training, there is absolutely no way to proof learned behavior without losing control of the dog. Bottom line is that I have 56 Sibes right now that I need to make adoptable NOW, and If that means using a prong collar, then so be it.
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Post by sibemom on Jul 3, 2004 6:41:25 GMT -5
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Post by Iluvmypup on Jul 3, 2004 10:05:25 GMT -5
The clicker is only used for teaching something new...once that is learned, the clicker is used for something more advanced. If my dog knows the 'sit' command for example, after using the clicker, I won't use it again for the 'sit' once he knows it. I might use it to teach 'sit-stay' under distractions but thats it. I am helping to train a Border Collie mix, so I know a little bit about prey drive. I'm also dealing with a husky/samoyed mix right now...and the clicker IS working. By the way, Laura, I love Air Force One! Hehe.. ;D
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Post by Nicole on Jul 3, 2004 11:09:52 GMT -5
Okay, let's say that you teach the sit and the sit stay with distractions with the clicker and that you were successful in doing so. Let's also say that it is clear that the dog understands the sit and the sit stay around distractions. What then do you do when the dog who understands the command and has been exposed to distractions decides for whatever reason to not comply. What is there to lose for the dog, especially the independant high prey dog who really could care less about pleasing you to just one day decide that he wants to run after the racoon.
You may say well we need to back up and train again. The problem I have with that is that the dog only needs to run into the road after the racoon once to not be available to go back and train....or to only have one opportunity to chase the four screaming toddlers at the park. Do you follow me. Reliability to me is the most important outcome of training. And I do not believe you can achieve that with the clicker or purely positive methods.
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Post by amyjo on Jul 3, 2004 12:05:16 GMT -5
Okay - Luv, I know we will never change your mind and I am sure you understand the same about us... My concern is for the average dog owner that comes here looking for help... while your methods might cut it for some -I believe the average pet owner lacks the time and patience to train without corrections. I know I do. I just want to make sure people understand that there is a faster easier way. Sure it involves discomfort for the dog - but if done correctly it is swift followed by an opportunity to earn praise and is really just a small small small part of a well trained dog's life. Once many lessons are learned they are learned for good. One good self correcting lunge on a prong will stop many (not all) dogs from ever doing it again. AND if done properly the dog never learns it was the collar and thus eventually won't need to wear it.
Most of us here follow the golden rule - "never give a command you can't enforce." Positive training as I read it says "never give a command your dog hasn't been conditioned to obey." This to me seems like it must really limit a dog's world until he has been conditioned on all manner of distractions.
And since we all know "a tired dog is a good dog" I see problems ....either you take the dog into situations he isn't ready for and he lunges etc and you have no recourse or the dog stays in a limited environment and it is tough to get enough exercise - thus creating other issues (chewing, digging, barking etc...)
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Post by Iluvmypup on Jul 3, 2004 16:21:18 GMT -5
Yes, but the dog DOES comply. Thats the whole point. A well trained, obedient dog that has gone through lots of training through different distractions WILL obey. And besides, if that dog that was chasing the racoon was on-leash, he wouldn't have had that chance to chase the racoon. If he was trained on a prong and decided to chase the racoon, apparently he's not on-leash and would have has much likelyhood to chase that racoon as a clicker trained dog, only the clicker trained dog would have been previously trained under distractions with the clicker. There are plenty of places to bring a dog for exercise. Why would he lunge at something? If he did, he wouldn't be safe in public, and I would start from scratch and socialize him around new things. A dog that lunges hasn't been properly socialized and trained, in my opinion. If a dog is aggressive towards people and dogs, he should be muzzled in public, since even if he had a prong on, I still wouldn't trust him around young kids/other animals. He could still be exercised either by bringing him to a fenced in parking lot, or keeping him on a 30 ft. leash while letting him run in a park. You're right..none of us are changing our points of views, so I guess this post should end now...sorry for keeping it going so long.
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Post by amyjo on Jul 3, 2004 17:09:45 GMT -5
I guess you miss my point - because even though a dog is on a leash she could still lunge at anything - mine used to lunge at leaves, blowing litter, bugs, squirrells....the first time the dog lunges instead of walking nice she is pulling on the leash - thus blowing off her previous training.
Your method would say she wasn't ready for that situation and need to go back a few steps - mine would allow her to self correct and learn from the situation.
I guess what I am saying Positive only it isn't expedient -especially for owners with other issues. I see so many people get into a downward spiral with thier dogs...dog misbehaves-dog doesn't get exercise-dog misbehaves more - dog gets locked in basement and so on...
A person locked into this kind of negative pattern with thier dog needs results NOW.
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Post by Willow on Jul 3, 2004 18:01:48 GMT -5
Bottom line is that I have 56 Sibes right now that I need to make adoptable NOW, and If that means using a prong collar, then so be it. Laura, you don't personally have 56 sibes living at your house, do you? If so, do you have outdoor kennels or do they all live in the house? Wow! That's a lot, even if you have a lot of volunteers who can also foster a bunch!
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Post by Laura on Jul 3, 2004 23:32:46 GMT -5
Loey, if I had 56 in my house at once, I wouldn't need carpeting for all the bodies on the floor! And I probably wouldn't have much of my sanity left either ! I have three at the moment, with my own two that's the max I can have per my county's law (which I think sucks ), the rest are in various foster homes in NJ, and Barbara has about 12 of them in her place in Brooklyn, NY. Plus we have 9 of them in a private boarding kennel since we are totally out of room . It seems like an uphill battle to get these BYB's to stop producing more around here .
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