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Post by FlatCoatedLover on Sept 8, 2004 12:13:48 GMT -5
I have heard intelligent, well thought out and convincing arguements for the use of prong collars when training dogs. THe ones that stand out to me the most are:
1. It allows you to effectively communicate by using the same correction as a mother dog. 2. Decreases training time (for pulling, jumping, biting etc from weeks and months to hours and days) 3. Increasing bonding and trust because the dog knows what is expected of them
To date, I have yet to hear the same cohesive arguements against it use. I usually get "oh it just cruel", "it hurts them" and others comments that would be true for any collar that is used improperly including a flat collar.
If anyone knows of scientific studies (printed in peer reviewed Vet journals and not in magazines or trade papers) that give evidence to support either side would be much appreciated.
I am of the opinion that the "proff is in the pudding" so to speak. I adopted a shy, timid, scared dog about 9 months ago. For the first 6 months we used only a flat collar, treats, loving and voice corrections to train her. She learned basic commands but was still frightened of everything (her tail was always tucked for that 6 months). After 6 months we purchased a prong collar and began using it at first only during walks. After 3 minutes of about face turns and sudden stops and a total 3 self corrections she has never pulled during walks again. SInce then we have begun to use it for other behaviors and have successfully taught her "leave it", " drop it", "hush", "off" and "enough." During the last 3 months of using the prong she has gotten a total of maybe 10 corrections and only one that made her yelp when she growled at a 4yo that pulled her tail (this was a level 5 correction when it normally only takes a 1 or 2). Now that she has clear and consistant boundaries she is more confident, doesn't cower all of the time and keeps her tail up and wagging. If the prong collars are as horrible as some people say then why are there such great results when using them, in regards to behavior and being happy well adjusted pets?
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Post by Richard on Sept 8, 2004 12:43:37 GMT -5
Good thread.....there are as many opinions to this as there is different types of snowflakes that fall (hey, winter is approaching!)....
Without getting into it too much, when the prong collar is used properly (instructed use, consistant and proper corrections in a timely manner) the prong is a training tool that is part of a blanaced training program that gets results as you've noted and documented here.
The problem is where you get people who don't know how to use the collar and miss-use it....tieing a dog up to a tree all day with a prong collar on is not nice....leaving a prong collar on all the time (to the point it begins to dig into the dogs fun) is not good either...and then as you noted, there are many who look at as some simple midevil torture device used by sado-masochistic types....I can't change what people think about the prong collar and I gave up a long time ago trying to explain the positives of using it.....I just let my dog's behaviour do the talking for me....he's not perfect (he's a dog afterall) but I'll be damned if he don't behave as I have trained him to and is responsive to my commands the first time....there is a lot of work that goes into training your dog (if you are willing to spend the time)....whatever method one chooses to use (PP, Clicker, Corrections and prong ect), then the results will speak for themselves.
Finally, it will be your attitude towards your dog and how you view dog handing and ownership that will always be the decisive factor in which training method to use..read the other threads through this forum about different attitudes and different ways of training...
-Richard
ps...I don't look down on PP trainers as much as they look down on me for using a prong....I've gotten flamed many a time (as have some others around here) on other dog forums for our beliefs...I just see how my dog handles and I really don't need to worry any further....as you said, "the proof is in the pudding"
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Post by ripley on Sept 8, 2004 13:06:22 GMT -5
I'm personally biased because I have never seen anyone who had BAD results with a correctly used prong collar, and going by MY results with shelter dogs, I think it's the greatest thing since the wheel. I'm VERY against using a prong on a dog that is hypersensitive or does NOT need it. (As in, they respond enough to a change in tone, and don't need a strong physical correction) However, on a harder dog (hard meaning, the dog will take corrections without crumbling) I wouldn't use anything else. IMO, any dog that needs leash corrections should be on a prong. Now I got flamed on another dog site too for saying this, but I think that prong collars are MUCH more humane for little dogs. I used one on my 5 pound papillon. My reasoning? -People who give corrections to little dogs are giving them on flat collars. little dogs that pull without getting corrections are almost always on flat collars. Small dogs have more fragile necks, and the yanking on a flat collar causes damage to the vertebrae and possibly to the trachea. -The prong collar, while it causes some minor discomfort (I wouldn't even call it that. It didn't hurt me in the least when I corrected my own neck with a prong collar.) does NOT cause any possible spinal damage or damage to the trachea. It pinches the skin. Now how is that inhumane? You're sparing the little dog pain and breathing difficulties later on in life. REALLY inhumane. By the way, I regularly correct my OWN neck with the prong collar, if a dog seems to be reacting strangely to it, to make sure that I'm not doing something wrong. And if you were wondering how painful it is, IT ISN'T WHEN ITS USED CORRECTLY! ---I've purposely misused the prong collar ON MYSELF to see how the misuse feels to a dog, and it is friggin PAINFUL! Hard yanks on the prong collar are painful. Constant pulling pressure on the prong collar is painful, being yanked backwards by a prong collar is painful.. The problem is that it's not the collar that's cruel, it's the misuse. Just my .02. BTW, the proof IS in the pudding. Just take a look at the shelter dogs I've worked with that walk like angels on the leash now. (That were dreaded monsters before the prong) AND have stopped mouthing, barking at strangers, and especially have stopped jumping up on people. It works for me, I feel comfortable and confident that I know how to use it, and until it suddenly stops working, I'm not going to stop using it. ;D
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Post by amyjo on Sept 8, 2004 13:22:58 GMT -5
Well there is supposedly is a German? study that has been oft quoted and restated but I have never been able to locate the original. The study describes the neck/trach damage found in autopsied dogs that pulled on buckle collars or choke chains all their lives. Perfect arguement FOR the prong but I doubt the source. I don't think you will see a ton of stuff on this in the vet journals...the veterinary community seems to be pretty pro halti in my experience. I think you just have to go with common sense and experience. I find that most people that think they are "cruel" have never really looked at one up close or tried on on themselves...they are just hung up on how it "looks".... I have tried them on my arms and legs (RG is a bad ass for putting on her neck ) - I am satisfied that they are uncomfortable for the dog but not abusive and I know they don't act on the dog structurally - just on loose neck skin. I am comfortable with my choice.
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Post by Willow on Sept 8, 2004 14:59:47 GMT -5
I think it's perfectly fine not to use a pinch collar if your dogs never get out into the "real world", but I want rock solid responses each time, every time and I feel the only way to accomplish that, is with a pinch collar.
Buddy has "graduated" to a pinch collar for that reason. ;D Once he is 100% on the recall with the pinch and long line, I will test him with out the line and if he is slow in responding or blows me off, can you guess what comes next? ;D
I want to do every thing in my power to insure my dogs safety, and I feel the only way to accomplish that is with a pinch collar and then an e-collar, if need be.
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Post by Nicole on Sept 8, 2004 18:48:57 GMT -5
I really have nothing to add because everyone has said it so well except to say that it takes a very good trainer to bring a fearful dog into a level of confidence. You should be very proud of yourself.
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Post by sibemom on Sept 8, 2004 19:24:13 GMT -5
Here is a perfect example of why a pinch collar is an ideal training too. Today as I posted my sweet Willow who responds without useing any kind of training collar had an episode. How would I have corrected this with nothing but a flat collar? It was my fault because I was thinking it could be done without one, and Loey is right if we would never leave the yard, and never go out into the world yes she would be fine. Blade is almost 100% graduated from his, but there are still times where I want no surprises, and I put the collar on about an hour before, I too am bad about letting them get collar smart I will praise this device up and down and have NEVER had one single negative reaction from using it. If there is a study which you know there always is to the contrary I am sure you can compare that with the anti-raw feeding ones
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Post by FlatCoatedLover on Sept 9, 2004 9:50:05 GMT -5
Nicole - thanks for the compliment. We worked very hard to improve her confidence, (right now she is bouncing up and down by the door wagging her tail wanting to go outside. When we first got her we had to basicly drag her out the door) and I credit most of my success to the wonderful advice that I received on this site. We have even gotten her thru some major set backs because of loose, territorial dogs in our neighborhood. I truly beleive without the advice of people on the board and the prong collar.
Richard - I am with you on the PP. I even use some of the methods for teaching tricks and non-critical skills, but for recall, growling, and nipping the pinch is the way to go.
Rip - I also have tried the pinch on several parts of my body including my neck. I will admit that it is uncomfortable when a correction is given but there is no pain. I would certainly stop doing what ever I was doing and think twice about doing it again.
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Post by Iluvmypup on Sept 9, 2004 12:33:15 GMT -5
Okay, here's my input. Since this is in the 'debate' section, I feel I can talk about it without 'hijacking' another thread. ;D I have NEVER, in my life, ever used a pinch collar. How come? Because I've never needed it. I see people using it on every single dog they own, and they way I look at it, I see it as an 'easy way out of training'. Dog pulls, yank him. Dog nips, yank him. Dog barks, yank him....the list goes on. WHY use such harsh methods, when you really don't need to?? I see your guys' point, on the fact that there are proper and improper ways of using these training collars. I can tell you I've seen a lot of dogs who HAVE gotten injured from these collars, but I'm not saying your dogs will, as these dogs were apparently mistreated all together. Another reason why I don't like these collars: They're quick fix, but is the dog trained? I see a lot of dogs who respond GREAT when they're wearing their collars, but as soon as they're off? They're jumping, pulling, acting like crazy. I wouldn't want to depend on a collar to do the necessary training that a dog needs. Nothing takes the place of a good foundation of training. ANOTHER reason...I haven't met one dog that was trained with a training collar that I could say "Oh wow, that dogs way better trained then my dog is, so I'm going to switch using my training for their training." Not a one. I'm not saying there aren't any better trained dogs then mine out there, because I'm sure there are, but my dogs are 100% reliable, without having ever used a training collar. They walk well on-leash, don't jump, pull, nip, 'over-bark', or have any other behaviour problems. So, I guess to sum it all up, I don't see the need, especially for people who have had their dogs since puppies. MAYBE if you got an adult and wanted a 'quick fix', you would want to use a collar (even though I've still never had to). BUT, if you have had a dog since a pup, then you should have started the training early, and never need it when they're adults. Just my .02 ;D
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Post by FlatCoatedLover on Sept 9, 2004 13:58:28 GMT -5
Luv,
I am so glad you decided to put in you thoughts but you have still not put forth any thing against it acept that you "don't see a need for it." While this is ok and you have the right to make that decision for yourself if you do not have more convincing arguements then you are going to have a hard time convincing others that your way is better.
As I said before the pinch collar was not my first avenue. I tried for 6 months to coax Lucy out of her severe timidness and tendency to panic. I began with PP not even using a voice correction because I was afraid of scaring her more and making it worse. This worked for getting her to do things I wanted but not for stopping things I didn't. (I did this for about 3 months)
I transitioned into using voice corrections and removal of attention. This worked for attention seeking but nothing else and actually increased her timidness or being scared of everything (she hated leaving the house or being around other people). Tried this for 3 months also.
After 3 months of using the pinch she is now a confident and less fearful dog. She also walks around with her head up and tail wagging, which she never did before. She doesn't cower when ever when pick any thing up and she now loves to be around people and does not wig out in new situations.
Each method I waited 3 months to see some improvement and only changed when there was none or when things got worse. In this final 3 months I have seen nearly a comlete turn around in the behavior and overall demenor of Lucy.
The comment about the dogs not actually being trained when they are used is a load of BS. You are making an assumption about the people who use them. I would venture to say that most of the people who make the choice to use a pinch are dedicated to training their dog and the people who are looking for an easy fix wouldn't bother to find out the correct ways to use it so they would not get results any way.
Personally I am offended by this statement because I have put in a great deal of time and effort training Lucy and while she is not yet 100% on all things yet, we should be there soon. She no longer wears the pinch (except for walks) and does not jump, bark, nip or act crazy in general unless given the command to do so.. The only time she acts a little crazy is when we get out the collar and leash to go for a walk and then she sits with her whole body wiggling in anticipation. Even though she still wears the collar on walks she has not received a correction in about 7 weeks and we are being the process of removing it all together by working with a leash on the pinch and flat collar and we will eventually have a leash on the flat and then remove the pinch collar all together
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Post by amyjo on Sept 9, 2004 14:00:12 GMT -5
1.Um...have you met Elvis? He was trained on a pinch collar and hasn't worn one in about 9 years. As a matter of fact he hasn't received a correction in about that long....That is because we did lay a proper training foundation.
2. Once again you portray people who use pinch collars as one-trick-trainers who only know how to yank on the leash. Maybe one day you will actually understand that most of us use the SAME methods as you to teach but ADD a layer of proofing with corrections to make sure the dog is reliable in all situations.
3. Why do you talk about a quick fix like it is a bad thing? You always talk about how quickly they learn on the clicker - but how long till they reach that 100% reliablity level? With a prong or an e-collar it sometimes only takes ONE correction - I compare that to months or weeks of desesitization and I have to wonder WHY WHY WHY?
4. Have you held, examined and tried a pinch on yourself like you promised - if so what are your observations? I find it disturbing that you would speak against them and say things like "I would never put pain on my dog" or "I would never never never use one"when you really have no first hand expeerience on which to base your comments.
5. Please just consider that though you have trained many dogs without a training collar - many people don't have the time and/ or expertise for a lengthy desensitization process - they may just need the right tool to get the point across! Also please consider that one day you will come face to face with a super hard dominant, chew nails for breakfast, high prey drive SOB that will give you the biggest challenge of your life, will tell you to shove the clicker where the sun don't shine and everything you know about training will go out the window and you will do what works. This was my first dog and this has colored much of what I believe.
I know this will happen to you one day - because the opposite has happened to me - I have finally met a dog that requires no more than a hard look in terms of a correction and who is always focused on me and trying to please. I can't even look at him too "hard" if he is bad because he will crumple. I never believed there were actually dogs like this. He changes everything I believe and YES I am clicker training him. I met mine and one day you will meet yours and wouldn't it be nice if you had the right tools at your disposal?
A.
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Post by Richard on Sept 9, 2004 14:14:43 GMT -5
Luv, Well, I'm glad I was wearing my flame suit cuz I think us pinch collar types just got torched by you....ouch ouch ouch.....so forgive me whilst I just change quickly here.... The prong a "quick fix".....not really....quick fixes are for lazy people who don't take the time to learn the steps to train your dog properly.....they figure I'll get the thing and that will be it...no training, no direction no balanced planning and most of all no brains..is that what you are talking about? As for the rest of your post, I am sorry, I find it somewhat insulting to me as a dog owner and a user of a pinch collar. Your post gives me the impression you think all I do is put that "collar" on him and yank, pull, yank, pull and do nothing else...hellooooo, anyone there? Nothing could be further from the truth but lets just ignore that part cuz based on your opinions here, there is no way a dog trained with a pinch collar can be called "trained" at all.... I'm sure you meant well but your comments basically tell me you think my training methods are cruel and harsh and therefore my dog is basically unreliable and untrained...am I missing something here....? Based on this comment, I'm a freaking worthless loser of a dog owner and my dog is a worthless untrained "quick fixed" mutt...does that make you feel better? Signed, Worthless in Canada
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Post by Iluvmypup on Sept 9, 2004 14:31:56 GMT -5
FlatCoatedRetriever---I'm glad that the pinch worked for your timid dog, but most experts will say that pinch collars shouldn't be used on shy, timid dogs. A quote from a trainer I know who uses prong/pinch collars: "Pinch collars have worked wonders on 'hard, mind-set' dogs I've worked with, but I would NEVER use one on a shy, fearful dog. An undersocialized dog, maybe, but a dog that shakes at the sound of a raised voice does not require a pinch collar." Like I said, I'm really glad it worked for your dog, but it doesn't typically turn out that way. A jerk on the dog won't teach him confidence any more then spanking a child for doing something wrong will make him braver and more confident. amyjo--- 1. No, I haven't met Elvis, but I'd love to. ;D He sounds like a sweet guy, and I've never said he wasn't trained. I'm sure he is very well trained. 2. I understand you use the 'same' training methods as me. But how does jerking a dog make him reliable? My dogs are 100% reliable, and I've never put any sort of pain on them in my life. They wouldn never break a STAY, or jump on company, or pull me down the road to chase something...so WHY do you need to have a training collar to 'proof' them if it can come through easier methods? 3. Its hard to calculate how long it takes to 'proof' something. It depends what you're talking about. If its pulling, it takes about 2 days with the clicker to teach a puppy to walk nicely, and for an adult, the time varies. I trained one within 3 days, and another 5 days. That hardly seems long, considering I'll have the dog for the next 10+ years. PLUS, my dogs look forward to training time, because its a fun time...not a time of 'forcing' and 'jerking'. 4. I checked out a prong collar, and did not like the way it felt. HOWEVER, I can't judge my thoughts on that alone, considering this was Petco, and the tips of the 'blades' or whatever they're called were pointy. I believe I remember someone saying they're supposed to be dull, so I'll check them out again somewhere else for a more accurate juding. 5. Its not like I've had all easy dogs in my lifetime. Just because I have trained each one of them without using a training collar, does NOT mean that they were in any way 'soft' and 'easy'. Quite the contrary. I've delt with aggression, and 'stubborn' dogs who had a mind of their own. If I ever reach a point where I don't think I can make it without a training collar, I'll let you know. ;D Oh, and this is just my point of view. I don't think you guys are cruel in any way...you're just using what you think is best for you and your dog. I don't bash people that use training collars (at least I try not to ;D) anymore then I go around saying 'clicker training is for everyone' because its not. I've met people who would go crazy if they had to learn all there is to know about using the clicker. ;D
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Post by Iluvmypup on Sept 9, 2004 14:38:05 GMT -5
Just saw your post K9Rocky...I never said your dogs are not trained, and I'm sorry if I 'torched' you in any way. I didn't mean for it to come across that way. I'm sure your dogs are trained...never said they weren't. Do I believe that training collars are 99% of the time unnecessary? YES! Do I belive that a dog who is trained with a training collar is un-trained? NO! OF course not! When I was talking about a 'quick fix' I was mainly talking about pulling, jumping.... I keep getting opposing views as well. Some people do call it a 'quick fix' with no problem, and others don't like that phrase. I call the clicker a 'quick fix' at times because thats what it is....a nice, fast, quick, easy, fun, gentle way of fixing the problem. I don't mean anything by it, so again, sorry if I come across strongly. I've been like this since I was a kid...if I believe in something, I tend to come across sometimes a little too strong.
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Post by Willow on Sept 9, 2004 14:54:43 GMT -5
I happened to catch a comment you made in one of your posts, Luv. You said your dogs "are always in the house." Now I know that isn't literal, because I'm sure you take them out to potty, right? Also, you just said your dogs "walk well on leash." My question to you is: Are your dogs ever "off leash" outside? Do you ever take them for "off leash" runs anywhere without a fence around them? Just curious, because most of us here do and that's what I meant about being in the "real world" . Can you take your dogs with you, and when they have to go potty, just open the car door in an appropriate area (like on a grassy spot behind the grocery store?)and let them out without a leash, have them go potty and come and jump back into the car without you saying a word to them, and even though there are cars etc. going by? Buddy is still a work in progress and admittingly I wouldn't try that with him at this point, but I can do that with my female Aussie. Another example: I was instructing one of my dog classes, used Kerra for a demo and then put her in the van. I thought I closed the door, but on our break later I went to get some pinch collars for the people who wanted to buy one, and Kerra was lying in the open doorway just watching what was going on! There were like 12 wild, yapping dogs about 25 yards from her and she stayed right where she was. I can walk her down a road (off leash) and if a car comes, tell her to "heel" and she will immediately come to my left side and stay there until I release her. Can you honestly do that with your clicker trained dogs?
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