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Post by amyjo on Sept 9, 2004 14:56:31 GMT -5
I am going to have to take a sanity break after this post ... I really just feel like we are never going to see eye to eye on this - The least I can hope for is that you stop bashing the prong especially when people are having problems with their dog. The reason the prong worked to make Lucy more confident is beacause for the first time in her life she understood very clearly the "rules" and the consequences of her actions. He people were finally speaking to her in a way she could understand and she "got" it! She also could relax and not worry because it had been made very clear that she was not in charge and didn't need to assume any responsibility what-so-ever. It isn't for every timid dog - but the fact that this method worked lets me know that Lucy was anxious because she needed a stronger leader. So lets just say it takes between 2-5 days to teach the dog not to pull on the leash. Okay fine great...does this include when he sees squirrels, other dogs, kids on bikes etc...or is this in a distraction free environment? What if on the sixth day - your dog pulls on the leash? Then what do you do? I correct my dog and move on. You take a few steps back and limit distractions right? both viable options. Mine is easier in my opinion. It is less frustrating for me and my dog has more freedom sooner. It is a personal choice. My dogs get EXCITED to see the prong. They also look forward to training sessions and they work with enthusiasm...because once again the corrections are only a very small part of the process. I know you have trained "difficult" dogs but I doubt you really know what I mean...statisically speaking though - one day you will. Elvis might sound sweet now -but after three bites (one on my neck) he was headed for death row. The prong collar saved his life.
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GWPSage
Trained
Back in the saddle again
Posts: 201
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Post by GWPSage on Sept 9, 2004 15:21:55 GMT -5
I love this thread! Luv its all a matter of semantics. Your standing on the leash correction could be "harmful" to your dog, and easily considered a "quick fix". The dog does not learn the word you are "forcing" the dog to remain in the position. In the meantime the dog jerks, and pulls on its own neck. Twirking it in unnatural directions. Much more "inhumane" correction than I could ever administer. (even with a pinch) I was a little taken back by the pinch when I first started using it, and was a little leary of using it on Dodie who is alot like FCL's dog. We are getting textbook results! Sage, is the only dog I EVER tried clicker training with . I dont think I would want to be on the recieving end of that leash with anything less than a pinch. Pinches have saved my tail many times. A highly aggressive Boxer handled for a "trainer" friend of mine. He said "Hes okay he wont do anything". RIIIIGHT Thank God I put a pinch on him anyway. I will never use another "device" on any dog, I personally think flat colars are for hanging tags, or serious protection work. Consider "wild" dogs, in a pack situation there is no. Will you please move? pretty please? Its MOVE or be moved. Nothing nice about it! I want your attention now, not when you feel like it. And if they dont give it they take it! By force!
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Post by Willow on Sept 9, 2004 16:50:37 GMT -5
Consider "wild" dogs, in a pack situation there is no. Will you please move? pretty please? Its MOVE or be moved. Nothing nice about it! I want your attention now, not when you feel like it. And if they dont give it they take it! By force! Sage, you bring up a good point. I really don't think a clicker/treat dog learns who the Alpha is if they never get a collar correction when they do something "bad". Example: Today on our walk, Buddy ran up and bumped into Kerra. He hit her pretty hard, because she yelped and then immediately growled/nipped him! That settled him down in a hurry! ;D
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Post by Aussienot on Sept 9, 2004 19:21:58 GMT -5
Luv, can you supply details on the type of injuries you have seen, where and when it happend, as you are the only person I am aware of who has such first hand knowledge.
No tool or training style is "universal". A good trainer will match the collar to the dog, and to the end point of the training being done.
I have used a range of training tools and collars: flat, martigale, check, prong, ecollar. Yes, I've used purely positive and even a clicker. Each training approach has a purpose and place. Every tool has pros and cons, and all types of training and tools CAN be used ineffectively.
A prong is easier to use correctly than a halti, and safer than a flat collar. It provides clear communication that the dog understands, and makes it easier for the dog to succeed.
For those reasons, I think the prong has a biggest area of appplication of the most popular training collars. I have yet to see a rational argument against it.
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GWPSage
Trained
Back in the saddle again
Posts: 201
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Post by GWPSage on Sept 9, 2004 20:55:18 GMT -5
Further more... You can do the same amount of damage to any dog nervous, shy, or "strong willed" with any "training", it doesnt matter what you use but how you use it.
Immediately after I correct a dog, they get a pat (acceptance) and everything is okay. Dogs want to remain in the pack and the alpha dog wants him to remain as well, they are just setting boundrys for acceptable behavior. (And they dont give eachother cookies for it) If I am not emotionally capable of putting my stress/ feelings aside I dont ever pick up the leash. Most of those cases where animals were severly injured with a pinch were ignorant, angry, and heavy handed handlers.
The essance of a dog is pack acceptance, if they dont have a clear picture of who is the leader it is almost as constructive as trying to be your childs best friend. (Not taking a leadership role)
(sorry if this post seems redundant)
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Post by FourPawsTwoFeet on Sept 9, 2004 22:48:58 GMT -5
I have very little to add to this debate, as I don't have nearly enough experience in training dogs to have a sure opinion on training collars, but I was wondering if some of you could answer a few questions about them? Is the prong an inevitability in your training? Is there a certain point in proofing where most of you use the prong, or is it just used on a limited number of tough dogs? Do most of you go from a slip collar to a prong or immediately to the prong from a flat buckle collar? How do you decide when to switch to the prong, and why? I promise not to flame any answers; I'd really appreciate any responses. It'd be nice to learn more about prongs. I was initially a little uneasy about their appearance, but as advised I went to the pet store and took a look at them, felt the tips and tried to consider how they work and how they compare to other tools. The experience left me with a certain respect for the people who use them, but still unsure of ever using one myself. So, more information/opinions/thoughts would be nice. Article or book recommendations would be good too; I love to read ;D
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Post by FlatCoatedLover on Sept 9, 2004 23:17:56 GMT -5
Is the prong an inevitability in your training? Is there a certain point in proofing where most of you use the prong, or is it just used on a limited number of tough dogs? No, not all dogs will need you to use a prong collar to train effectively. I switched to the pinch when no other method I tried yeilded the results that I was looking for. (must give any method a fair shake like a month or more.) Do most of you go from a slip collar to a prong or immediately to the prong from a flat buckle collar? How do you decide when to switch to the prong, and why? I began using only a flat (buckle) collar. With this type of collar the dog can cause damage to its neck and trachea if it pulls alot or if you jerk on it repeatedly. If you can get you dog's attention and he understands displeasure using other methods (treats, toys, loving etc) then use all of those things to you advantage. If you do choose to use one then you must take care not to make you dog collar smart by teaching him that he can get away with things when it is not on. I promise not to flame any answers; I'd really appreciate any responses. It'd be nice to learn more about prongs. I was initially a little uneasy about their appearance, but as advised I went to the pet store and took a look at them, felt the tips and tried to consider how they work and how they compare to other tools. The experience left me with a certain respect for the people who use them, but still unsure of ever using one myself. I would recommend trying one on yourself. If you're brave then on your neck or not so much then on your thigh. Holding just the D-ring and not the O-ring give it a quick "pop" It will give an uncomfortable pinch but it will not hurt. The prongs should not be pointy, they should be rounded.
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Post by FourPawsTwoFeet on Sept 10, 2004 0:10:20 GMT -5
Thanks for your thoughts I would recommend trying one on yourself. If you're brave then on your neck or not so much then on your thigh. Holding just the D-ring and not the O-ring give it a quick "pop" It will give an uncomfortable pinch but it will not hurt. The prongs should not be pointy, they should be rounded. I imagine that this would get me some pretty strange looks from other pet store shoppers ;D
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Post by Brooke on Sept 10, 2004 0:30:30 GMT -5
I couldn't help myself. I wasn't going to get into this one but I think I'm going to go ahead and bite. I first do have to say that I really like that you bring a diversity to this site Luv. That is something that I wanted here when I put this site together. I'm glad you've stuck with us. I appreciate where you are coming from but on this one I do have differing opinions. Because I'm an administrator I usually try to stay neutral and let it hash out but things said bother me here too a little this time. I have yet to see a rational argument against it. I never once have either... I've seen you offer the same advice to other people on this board Luv. Infact I think you've even termed it as "jerk" yourself before. ( I may be wrong though.) The only difference is the collar it's used with. And maybe I'm mincing words but your opinions seem more based off personal opinion than offering an educated theory that makes sense. The point of debate is to educate people into why your theory works and/or is better. I'm hoping for that because I am interested in what you have to say and offer. ;D You would rather someone correct with a flat buckel collar? A collar which is typically more distructive to the trachea and neck and known to cause more damage more often than a pinch where minimal amount and intensity of a correction is required. That alone is something that doesn't make sense to me and just seems close minded more than anything. Everything you've said just seemed more of an inexperienced opinion. I can't tell you how many people offer me their opinions on these tools and when I ask them about specifics I get answers stating that "it was actually someone elses dog". I ask, "well, were you there to see what happened?" and I get a "no, they told me what happened" and this is the "experience" they have to offer to where they got their opinion. How fair is that? They don't know how experienced the person who was even handling the dog was, or for that matter even who was handling the dog! It is normally a regurgatated opinion of someone elses experiences or they just look at it and feel they know what they are talking about. The PINCH collar works -because- it is a -natural- correction. What in your opinion is the difference between a pinch's prongs and a dogs teeth? It pack structurally makes sense to the dog in a correctional way. Not because the dog is fearful. Let me just reiterate again, that ANY collar (or yet I'll even go one further and say) tool can be misused. Including a clicker. Not just a prong or e-collar. I've observed more dogs messed up and confused in clicker training more often than I have in adversive or motivational (rather) method sessions. In fact I even see it regularly when I go to watch just to observe classes every week. I watch the whole class when I go. Why do I continue to go? To see how many improve. Many do but many also don't. More often than not, it's the trainer that is clouded and refuses to see that the dog is just not getting it. Just as people learn differently, so do dogs. As I see it, this is real life training for them. Something that they can grasp because it is instinctual to them. Many (not saying all) of the dogs just never get any better...whether it's a class or session of 1 or 10... regardless of the trainer. I'm definately not saying the pinch need to be used on all dogs but I get tired of people being hell bent on making the method fit the dog and not the other way around... either way. Be it pinch, choke, flat collar or clicker, ect... I'm not going to get into parenting do's and don'ts because thats a whole different forum. I grew up in a daycare and even worked there, where my mother watched anywhere from 8-17 children at any one time since I was in grade school. (I am closing in on 25 ) I have seen probably ...anywhere from 175-200 kids in my home that I grew up in and I know exactly which ones were the most well mannered and respectful and less work to be around. I also know which ones caused the most problems. By that... I feel that I am qualifed enough to say that spanking honestly makes absolutely no difference what-so-ever in a childs confidence... I've also seen kids who were battered and beaten and there is a HUGE difference in that. Out of respect for those kids, for the love of god lets please not mistake it! Thats as far as I'm going to go with that subject. The difference in this is that a "correction" by the neck is how a dog learns right from wrong in a pack setting. This can very much be a confidence booster. It allows the dog to know a very clear set of rules so that there is no question. We are talking a difference between understanding speech and language, phrases, sentences, being able to communicate back and the difference in using body language, physical guidance and tone of voice. There is a huge difference in the way a dog learns and processes compared to a child. Can I ask what it is about them that make them "easier"? Do you feel you are qualified to make that statement? I may be biased but I'm experienced and realistic enough to know that a pinch is not going to work for every dog anymore than any other method is going to work for -every- dog. ... just my .02
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Post by sibemom on Sept 10, 2004 5:31:57 GMT -5
I like this debate and yes Luv you have been a great addition to this forum, because as Richard said you play well in the sandbox ;D Here is another example of using a prong vs. clicker. I was trying very hard to get Willow started without using a prong collar and like I said for the most part she is learning her commands without and corrections by that particular collar, BUT, again yesterday I took her out and some kids were playing football. Well you know kids and puppies they just act like magnets towards each other. The one kid asked if he could pet her, and came running over and she got sassy, barked growled and jumped at him, right at that point I gave her a high level correction and said NO. Yes she yipped but it was over. When we came back around to the same kids I asked the young boy to run over like he had done before and there was not one misstep by her. I could not have got that kind of reaction without the prong collar. I give all my dogs a chance to see what I am going to have to use to train them. For both of mine I have choosen the prong collar. Do an experiment with one of the dogs you get in the near future. I am sure you will encounter one that maybe is a bit more defiant, just try it. I tried the clicker and yes I can see where some dogs will do ok with that, but now it's you turn to keep the playing feild level
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Post by Willow on Sept 10, 2004 8:07:57 GMT -5
I have NEVER, in my life, ever used a pinch collar. How come? Because I've never needed it. So, I guess to sum it all up, I don't see the need, especially for people who have had their dogs since puppies. MAYBE if you got an adult and wanted a 'quick fix', you would want to use a collar (even though I've still never had to). BUT, if you have had a dog since a pup, then you should have started the training early, and never need it when they're adults. Just my .02 ;D ;D As to your first statement about never in your life using a pinch collar. Um...you don't sound that old to me, Luv. Chances are you will train a lot more dogs, and as someone else pointed out, eventually you will "meet your match" who will not respond to a clicker/treat. As to your second statement saying if you have a dog from puppyhood on, you shouldn't need to use a pinch collar. I used to think that too, because I have trained quite a few dogs from puppies on and only started using a pinch collar when I started fostering for a Lab rescue in the past 3 yrs. or so, but again. It depends on the individual dog. Plus, when I trained my puppies I had never heard of a pinch collar, and on my GSD's and one Lab (raised from puppies) I laid a good foundation, and then later went to the dreaded "slip collar". Why? Because even though I had laid a good foundation as puppies, as they matured, I still needed the control I could only get with the slip collar. I'm sure your arguement will be that I didn't really "lay a good foundation then", but then I would again ask you and to which you still haven't answered. "Are your dogs totally reliable off leash, out in the "real world"? To get my dogs to that level, I had to use a slip collar on all but one of them. He was one of those very soft dogs, a lab, who just seemed to know what I wanted and gave me no arguement ever. I also have to say that I have been raising/training dogs for like 45 years now, and he is the only one I was fortunate enough to own! I have had other "soft" dogs, but at some point they all needed a training collar, because I wanted them to be reliable off leash! If your dog is never off leash when out in public, that's a completely different story. If you can honestly say you can take your dogs anywhere off leash and they are reliable, then you need to be writing some books telling other's how to do it with all dogs, without using a training collar. You would make millions, because there are many, many people out there like you who think training collars are cruel and want well trained dogs without having to use one. Just my .02 cents worth.
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Post by Iluvmypup on Sept 10, 2004 12:17:17 GMT -5
Okay, I'll try to cover a couple of things you guys have covered. ;D By the way, I really like this debate, as its interesting seeing your guys' side of the topic...makes a person think. Thats where NILIF comes in. That can also teach the dog that I am Alpha, not him. I provide the goods. He has to work for them. I do everything first. I walk through doorways first, I go down stairways first...sometimes I'm unsure if that really makes a point to the dog, but I do it anyways. ;D I just don't use a training collar to prove my leadership to a dog. No, I don't have the details. I've had dogs come to my local shelter who have had severe neck injuries, cuts, abrasions...BUT, like I mentioned earlier, these were dogs were mistreated in the first place. I wasn't bringing this point up to say that every person who uses the prong or pinch collar will end up with their dog having injuries. No, I wouldn't....and yes, I have used collar corrections at times, but very rarely. I only used them on a rotty I owned once, and also a mixed breed that I owned. I still have stuff to learn about training, just like all of us, and now, looking back, I see a better way I could have dealt with those times. Jerking shouldn't have been an option. I know it! I've seen people attempting to clicker train, and the dogs never learn. Its the OWNER who doesn't have enough knowledge on clicker training to make it work, therefore the dog never learns. Those are the same people as someone who mis-uses the prong collar. My guess is that the prong collar would not work unless the owner knew how to work it. I don't know about that one... Skipper won't need one, as he's learning quick, and my other two dogs are 'past' their early training. If I ever use one, I'll let you know. ;D Thanks, Willow! ;D I continually have a new dogs each month to work with, so I have faced many dogs throughout the years. Not saying I'll never face a dog tougher then the last, but I have no doubt that I won't be able to 'deal' with one, with the resources and training tools at my disposal. Is that what defines a well-trained dog? If it is, then yes, my dogs are reliable and well-trained. ;D I'm not sure if I'd ever trust Skipper off-leash, because of his breed (husky), but I can't say yes or no to him at his age. My other two dogs, my yellow lab and red doberman, are both reliable, and I give them their 'freedom' in fields and on 'country walks'. I keep them on-leash for those times when walking through large crowds, just for their safety and the fact that a lot of people freak when they see an off-leash doberman. ;D I let them out for their 'potty break's off-leash, but I would never let them out near a busy highway, anymore then I would let my 5 year old out near a busy road. That doesn't mean I dont' trust them but for their own safety, I park far enough away from a busy road for their breaks, for my own peace of mind. ;D And there are plenty of books that cover how to train reliable off-leash dogs. Oh, and about the 'keeping my dogs always indoors', of course they're allowed outside for potty breaks. ;D What I meant by that was that they were always indoors unless I brought them out, or we went on an excursion for the day somewhere. I don't allow my dogs outside without my supervision, simply because of not trusting my dogs, but because I don't trust other dogs (and people for that matter) in my neighberhood. PHEW, got that all out. ;D Remember, I'm not bashing you guys' ways of training..I'm just saying that I believe theres a better way. I can't persuade you guys to believe that, just like you can't persuade me to stop my training and lean towards using training collars. So, instead, lets just shake and make a truce, and I'll begin reading up on proper ways to use a prong collar so if I ever do run into a dog that I don't think my training will work on, I'll know what to do. ;D
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Post by ripley on Sept 10, 2004 13:54:10 GMT -5
Totally off topic, but this thread is a good example of why I LOVE Reality.. People with very strong, completely opposite opinions can debate something *maturely* and not get into a huge flamewar. ;D
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Post by Willow on Sept 10, 2004 14:35:50 GMT -5
Yep, and on that note, I think this thread is exhausted. Or maybe it's just me.
Over and out! ;D ;D
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Post by Aussienot on Sept 10, 2004 17:28:28 GMT -5
This topic is like a rabbit to a sighthound. No matter how many times the bunny gets away, we just can't resist going after it.
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