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Post by sibemom on Jan 30, 2004 18:25:11 GMT -5
WOW this is getting really good ;D There were so many big words slapped out there my head hurts I am proud to say that I do know what all the words mean I have to rest now before I get back in on this topic .
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Post by Laura on Jan 30, 2004 20:23:50 GMT -5
Ann, don't feel bad, I needed a nap after my last post! Nicki, the heartworm is one thing, that's transmitted by mosquitos, i.e. biting an infected dog, etc. and in all honesty, I'd rather take my chances giving the preventative 6 months out of the year than to have my pups come down with it, I've seen dogs infected and it wasn't pretty . As for the rest of the diseases, that's an excellent point you make. I believe, IMHO, that it's irresponsible to not have your dogs initially vac'ed and have them co-mingle with other animals, with certain diseases like Parvo and distemper, both which are costly and difficult to cure. On the flip side, nobody vac's against Lepto anymore with regularity, and we now have an outbreak of it. Pinpointing the original host carrier is tough enough in people, nevermind dogs, so I believe it's better to err on the side of caution and initial vac, then titer.
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Post by Willow on Jan 30, 2004 20:34:28 GMT -5
Those are very good questions, Nicki, and I will admit that I am not qualified to give an intelligent ans. to them, although they have been asked/answered many times on the vaccine sight and made perfect sense to my un-educated mind.
Those would be very good questions to ask the no vacc's group. There are many people on that site, including vet's, who are more intelligent than I am and who would be happy to ans. those questions and any other's you have. ;D
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Post by Willow on Jan 30, 2004 20:50:39 GMT -5
Have you all read: www.bullovedbulldogs.com/heartworm.htmThere is some excellent information on HW in this article. I will HW test before HW *season* this year and twice a yr., as recommended. I will also use the natural mosquito repellents. I don't think I said I wouldn't titer my dogs, because I haven't decided yet. The reason I personally may not titre/titer is because of the age of my dogs. I had a vet tell me many years ago that once a dog is as old as mine they don't need to be vaccinated again, because they have such an immunity built up. As far as being irresponsible if I don't vaccinate my dogs and then let them mingle with dogs that are....I would be more afraid of my dogs picking up an illness from the virus' other dogs will shed from being vaccinated, and that my dogs will pick up. Also, I don't believe in letting my dogs co-mingle with any/every dog that comes along, vaccinated or not. I never did allow that and my dogs did just fine and were not deprived or mal-adjusted from not being able to *socialize* with other dogs. When ever my dogs did pick up anything, it was from co-mingling with other dogs. Sarcoptic Mange, for one thing, so you don't ever have to worry about *other* dogs getting anything from my dogs, because I wouldn't allow my dogs near them. ;D
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Post by Willow on Jan 30, 2004 21:02:52 GMT -5
Another interesting fact is that there are many more people than we all realize who do not vaccinate their dogs, but that show them, take them to training classes, agility events, herding events...everything, and their dogs do not *pick up* illnesses where the vaccinated dogs will.
Last summer there was a Parvo like virus going around the dog circuit. It was in epidemic proportions, yet not one un vaccinated dog died from it, on the list I am on. Some got ill, but all recovered, whereas quite a few vaccinated dogs did die from it.
That tells me that the un vaccinated dogs have a healthier immune system then the vaccinated dogs, and are better able to *fight off* this stuff.
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Post by Willow on Jan 30, 2004 21:25:33 GMT -5
This just came on the list, which I thought was timely! And Sheryl didn't get all those titles on her un-vaccinated dogs from keeping them home or not going around other dogs. ;D Have been receiving a reminder from Hunter's old vet that it is time for >his annual Dhpp vaccine, due last November. I've not done anything yet. >Is Dhpp the combination vaccine for several things? Do you suggest I >have him tested for whatever it covers before he gets the shot, if at >all? Hi Colleen, If Hunter has been immunized before he does not need boosters. The antibodies from the previous vaccines will cancel out the booster. You cannot make a dog "more" immune. Dr Ron Schultz from UW Madison has done studies that show that most shots last at least 7 yrs if not the lifetime of the animal. www.ivis.org/advances/Infect_Dis_Carmichael/schultz/chapter_frm.asp?LA=1Booster shots have the potential to do harm only, no good can come of them! And yes, the Dhpp is a combo shot. Toss the reminder in the garbage > >Because I live in a semi-rural area and Hunter previously lived on a >fenced-in estate, never out, his old vet suggested Heartguard, which I >did last January. We do go out and run around in the hills a lot >together and the vet thought it would be a good idea even though there >is not a high incidence in this area. Why would you do Heartguard in January? Do you live somewhere where it is very warm then? Take a look at this site; www.bullovedbulldogs.com/heartworm.htmIt explains the heartworm lifecycle. You'll see that heartworm has very specific conditions before the life cycle can be completed. The risk of transmittion is highly overrated imo. Plus Heartguard is not a preventative but a wormer. It also carries it own set of risks www.fda.gov/cvm/index/fdavet/2001/May_Jun.htmwww.patmckay.com/Article_8.htmlDogs can develop natural immunity to heartworm. I have not used anything for 4 summers now. (I live in Wis). All my dogs have continued to test negative. Should they ever test positive I would use holistic cures to treat them, safely and gently. www.danebytes.com/heartworm-cures.htmWhy put poisons in your dog if you don't have to? > >He sent me a reminder for Heartguard 12 month renewal, too. I need some >feedback on this to get me started in the right direction. I don't want >him to go without if these are not harmful and absolutely necessary. > Focus your energies on building his immune system via a raw diet, no toxins and plently of love and fresh air He'll be healthier than ever! (PS I have lots more links on my website if you need more info) Welcome to the list Sheryl ~ Daybreak Australian Shepherds home.g2a.net/~daybreak/"Flash" ~ Daybreak's Inspiration STDs, CD, CGC "Arrow" ~ AKC/ASCA Ch. U-CDX, U-AGI, U-AGII Chase's Straight Shootin' Dude AKC CDX, AX, AXJ, CGC, ASCA CDX, RS-N, GS-N, JS-N, DNA-CP, NJC, NAC, NGC "True" ~ Daybreak's B True To Yourself AKC/ASCA CD, CGC, NA, FFX-A P, NAJ, FFX-A P, RS-N, FFX-A P, JS-N, NAC, NJC and cats "Casey", "Phaedra", "Hallie" and "Evelyn"
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Post by Nicole on Jan 30, 2004 21:44:07 GMT -5
I just want to say that regardless of our own personal opinions and feelings on this subject that this conversation has been extremely informative and educational and I appreciate that.
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Post by Willow on Jan 30, 2004 22:18:40 GMT -5
Me too.
Now I have a couple questions for all you who vaccinate.
If your dogs have immunity against disease from vaccinations, and my dogs aren't vaccinated, how will my dogs give yours a disease? Your's are immune, right?
Now, if your dogs are vaccinated and immune from disease, and my dogs have natural immunity....again, how will my dogs give your dogs a disease....they're ALL immune, right? ;D
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Post by Willow on Jan 30, 2004 22:38:35 GMT -5
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Post by Laura on Jan 30, 2004 23:38:07 GMT -5
Loey, you're about the last person I would direct that comment to, my bad, I should have taken more time to post that one! I'm talking about the people who take ill dogs to the store, the dog park, etc.. Just a few weeks ago there was a young couple in Petco with a puppy (maybe 2-3 months?), and the pup had a rip roaring case of kennel cough! Shheeesh ! And since my dogs have never been vac'ed for Bortadella, I wasn't sticking around . But I do understand what you mean about vac'ed dogs not being able to catch a disease, but living on the East coast, the canine population is enormous and densely packed, so I do worry more about disease than maybe someone who lives in a rural area. And I is ALL for titers ;D.
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Post by sibemom on Jan 31, 2004 9:14:13 GMT -5
See that is my question also. If your dogs titers test with proper immunity levels then how COULD they pass on illness to those who are vaccinated The think with lepto that I found out by one of the vets I am considering changing to was this. She told me that the protection of the vaccine is not what people are fooled into believing. She said maximum protection only lasts for about 3 months. So for optimum protection you would have to vaccinate every 3 months. I havent gone any farther to research her opinion. When she vaccinates she uses the single vac for parvo and disstemper. She also spaces them along with the rabies. The heartworm issues is still bothering me because of Blades reactions to the med's. It's winter now so I have a little time to decide. I know there are other's out there besides the heartgaurd, like interceptor which this vet only recommends because of it being safer in her opinion. I know with Quinn's dog they use a brand that you cannot get here in the states and it begins with an S someone had told me about it on Leerburg and then said it was just like the interceptor but much smaller in dose. So they have to ship in Coda's heartworm med's. They also run titers on her instead of automatic boosters. Of course before she could come across the border she had to have ALL her shoots but from now on titers will be run. Mira's approach is hedging on what we are talking about in this debate. They do not just use conventional methods they have a good combo of both. Their reseach facility is massive and before any treatments are done on her they must be approved by their vet's.
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Post by sibemom on Jan 31, 2004 9:21:00 GMT -5
Ok I just called Quinns mom the one they use is called *Safeheart* I dont know why we cant get it here? Maybe the Canadians are farther ahead in that respect. RIGHT RICHARD ;D
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Post by Willow on Jan 31, 2004 9:46:18 GMT -5
Ann, there are natural mosquito/flea/tick repellants you can get or make that work very well and that's what I am going to do with my dogs this summer. I used one on them last summer (we have mosquito breeding ponds right in back of us that my dogs swim in!) and it worked really well. Also, if you give your dog garlic every day, this helps with the mosquito/flea problem. There is also a garlic spray you can get to spray the areas your dog frequents *outside* ;D, which repells mosquoitos. It can also be sprayed directly on your dog, but depending on if it smells strongly of garlic or not, I'm not sure about that one, but if it works and won't kill us, I'll try it!!!! ;D
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Post by Willow on Jan 31, 2004 10:00:04 GMT -5
No problem, Laura! ;D This is a debate and if we can't take it, stay away!
I appreciate all of you participating in it like you have been and asking questions etc. That's how we all learn. It makes me do reading I should have done before , so I have learned a lot too!!
As for Bordatella, I don't worry about it because in adult dogs it's not serious. They cough and maybe gag and throw up awhile, but it will generally go away on its own. I had my female contract it from a foster dog and she was vaccinated against it!!!! She coughed/gagged for about a week and then was fine.
As for Parvo, the same is true. If your dog has a healthy immune system from raw feeding and no vacc's etc., if they do contract it (It's actually a *puppy* disease too and healthy adult dogs usually don't get it), it is not that serious.
Actually, everything we vaccinate for (except Rabies) are considered *puppy* diseases, so it stands to reason that once the puppy is an adult, they should be fine (again IF they have a healthy immune system).
That's why some give the puppy shots by spacing them out so they don't over load the immune system, and then they don't give them again, because by then they either have immunity or they don't. As Sheryl said...you can't give *more* immunity by giving booster vaccines. ;D
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Post by sibemom on Jan 31, 2004 10:02:57 GMT -5
I have been looking into the non-chemical products. I agree garlic is the best thing to keep the immune system healthy and also keep nasty bugs off your dog. I am also planting some more mint around the area where Blade's kennel will be. My mom has mint all around her home and has no problem with moquitos. She has a few other plants that keep bugs away. I think if you keep the cause off the dog you are much farther ahead. With my horses I never used chemical wipes to keep bugs off. I would use a combination of apple cider vinegar and skin so soft. I also put apple cider vinegar in their stock tank. That worked so much better than any chemical I had ever used and it was safe. Of course you cant use skin so soft on the dog because they lick themselves. For ticks on the horses I would put vicks vapor rub on the top of their tails. That was always where I found them trying to dig in. After I started that NO MORE TICKS ;D. Any type of menthol, camphor etc.. has repellant proporties.
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