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Post by sibemom on Jan 29, 2004 19:01:42 GMT -5
Amyjo I understand exactly where you are comming from. Yes my children are vaccinated but only with the ones required by law. Humans are different than animals. Nature did not provide for us as far as immune systems like it did for animals. We humans are the weak ones in Mother natures plan. So many things that would affect us in an adverse way are just part of a dogs day to day activity. Drinking from puddles, eating poop, dragging home road kill and then snacking on it for days. We are the ones that made the decision to create all these chemicals and use them on our dogs etc... What happened before these things were around? My family is the most important thing to me and no I will not take chances with their health care BUT I also inform myself well to any treatment that they might undergo and I always ask if there are side effects and if so is there an ALTERNATIVE METHOD. I would never force anyone to take this approach. It took me a long time and lots of research to make this decision and there are a few things that I am still unsure about but I am the one who has to make those choices just like you. So dont get overwhelmed there is alot to think about. You will make the best choices for you and your pets I am sure of it ;D
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Post by Willow on Jan 29, 2004 19:38:54 GMT -5
Nicki, here is the ans. I got from the list.
##Actually, the "preventatives" don't prevent it at all....the only way to prevent heartworm from infecting a dog is preventing him from being bitten by an infected mosquito!! The "preventatives" are actually just wormers!##
Yes, of course. So in actuality, you are just worming your dog every month in case he has been infected. Why not just wait then and *worm him* if he contracts it?
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Post by Willow on Jan 29, 2004 19:53:20 GMT -5
Amyjo, I also understand where you are coming from. I went through the same thing you are going through and yes, my children were vaccinated as babies/children, but back then we didn't know we had *choices*. There are many, many Dr's/nurses not vaccinating their children today because of the risks. I have an autistic grandson and the Dr. told my son and wife point blank, it was more than likely due to the vaccinations. (I forget esp. which one), but it's in the *combo* they give babies. DHLLP or whichever. There is a lot of evidence now that it does cause autism. Did you read the vaccine ingredients I posted in the *health* section?
Vaccines compromise the immune system and even change DNA. That's why there are so many chronic diseases that we and our dogs, and yes, cats, are getting.
I know I have stated this before but it bears repeating: Vaccinations do not prevent or cure disease. All they do is drive the disease inside and it will either reappear as an accute disease later, or reappear as a chronic disease. There are many, many diseases attributed to the giving of vaccinations, and when you look at stats, it is more often the one who has been vaccinated against a disease who gets it, then the one who has not been vaccinated, whether it be us, our children or our pets.
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Post by Nicole on Jan 29, 2004 21:26:18 GMT -5
The preventative actually eliminates the tissue stage of heart worm larvea instead of waiting until they actually become worms. It gets it when it is basically an amoeba versus a large roundworm that lays a millions eggs/worms. By the time a test is positive for heartworms you will have numerous worms and eggs. Females are up to 14 inches and males 7 inches and they clog the arteries and blood supply to other organs. I personally believe that anyone living in an area that has mosquitoes should give HW meds. This is JMO.
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Post by Laura on Jan 29, 2004 22:51:52 GMT -5
Ok, I've managed to stay out of this one, but here I come ;D ! Loey, this one have to respectfully disagree with you on,
Since this is an area that I work in, I have to say that if weren't for vaccines, polio would still be rearing it's ugly head, as well as rubellla, tuberculosis, diptheria, yada yada yada. Vaccines for the past 38 years have always been a cultivar of modified dead virus, therefore unable to transmit the actual disease, but to give the immune system the antibodies that are culled from a dead virus. Now that being said, as for our dogs, it's still a matter of weighing the pros and cons of giving a vac. Live in an area that has a mosquito or tick infestation, then you have to make the hard decision of taking that chance, as some of these illnesses are tough to catch early enough to treat without undue stress to the dog (and your wallet ;D), and since none of our dogs can speak english, it's difficult to tell when they're feeling crappy until it's late in the game. On the other hand, drug companies and the veterinarians who live in their pockets are ALWAYS eager to have you vaccinate for the sheer dollar amounts that it generates, but it still up to you, the consumer to make that final choice.
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Post by sibemom on Jan 30, 2004 5:57:31 GMT -5
Yes Laura you are right about polio and several others. I have hard time with believing that all human vaccines are un-needed. My dad had polio as a child. He was left with permanent outward signs as a reminder. If the vaccine would have been given he would have never got the illness. I am not saying I dont think that vaccines in humans cant cause some side effects but I do think the protection is better than the illness. I work in health care and we are highly recomended to take the hep b series. I did and when it came time to test for the conversion my body did not convert. They gave me another shot waited and it still did not convert. I wont take anymore obviously that vaccine is not working for me or the other theory is that I already have a natural immunity. This is a great subject to debate and as like you said these are choices you have to make for yourself.
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Post by amyjo on Jan 30, 2004 8:57:07 GMT -5
I can't tell you guys how much I apprecite this debate. I have alot of material to digest and alot of decisions to make. I am ashamed to say I never really educated myself about these issues - I just trusted my vet...because I thought they knew better than I did.
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Post by Willow on Jan 30, 2004 11:37:51 GMT -5
Maybe this thread should be in the *debate* section. ;D
Anyway, what I am quoting here is from Dee Blanco-Vaccines-are they safe for your dog? (This also applies to humans). And I quote:
"The primary intention of the vaccine is to produce a stimulation to the cellular immune system, via the production of antibodies". Antibodies attach onto the virus and render it inactive and harmless. It is through this stimulation and resultant production of antibodies that the body is now prepared for a possible *attack* by *foreign invaders* later down the line. These invaders are typically known as bacteria or viruses. This immunity will later provide protection without having to go through the disease itself. It's a bit like the vigilant minute-men always on guard for a possible attack."
(Laura, this is what you are referring to, I believe.)
Back to quote:
"There are problems with this way of thinking. Typically, the vaccines are injected into the body, subcutaneously, (under the skin) or intramuscularly (in the muscle.) These vaccines usually have numerous viruses as well as other ingredients in them. Exceptions to this include the rabies, corona, and bordatella vaccines. Herein lies the second and third problem with the vaccination process.
The process of injecting numerous viruses at one time into the body does not mimic in any way what we would see in a natural world. (Loey says: This is what the *baby shots* in our children do also. They are a *combo* of several viruses.)
Back to quote: "There would never be such an enormous exposure to that many microorganisms at one time....These diseases have never, in the real world, occurred at one time, never. The purpose for which mother nature uses and continues to use acute illness is to thin out the population, whereby the fittest survive. Everything in nature has a rhythm, everything. The rhythm of distemper, of polio, of measles, of influenze, of parvo, of rabies are all on a schedule. This schedule, much to the chagrin of the vet profession, is not determined by the vet profession."
End of quote: Now...the following quote pertains to what you all are saying about diseases in our children and us.
Quote: "Neil Miller, a father of two, in his desire to understand the issues around vaccination for his children, decided to explore the issue extensively. He studied the rise and fall and the death rate of the childhood diseases of polio, measles, and whooping cough in both the U.S. and the UK. He compared the death rates and the point at which vaccinations were introduced. Much to his surprise (italic's mine.) in all three of these diseases, he saw that the death rates starting in the early 1900's were markedly decreasing by the time the vaccines were introduced. In the case of polio there was actually a bit of an increase after the vaccines. The increased mumbers of deaths after polio vaccines were covered up by reclassifying them as aseptic meningitis. Therefore the deaths didn't show up in the records, but it is quite clear that vaccinations did not really have a beneficial impact on the already declining health rate. The reason the diseases were declining had more to do with the increased natural resistance and better understanding about prevention through hygiene." End of quote:
There is more about how viruses naturally enter the body, and why injecting them into the body is un-natural and poses problems, but I will quit boring you now. ;D If you want to read the whole article it is one listed in the other thread.
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Post by Willow on Jan 30, 2004 11:44:42 GMT -5
Yes Laura you are right about polio and several others. I have hard time with believing that all human vaccines are un-needed. My dad had polio as a child. He was left with permanent outward signs as a reminder. If the vaccine would have been given he would have never got the illness. Ann, you cannot be sure of that, because children and adults who received the polio vaccination also got the disease. Getting a vaccination does not guarantee you will not get the disease you are vaccinated against, and the results from getting the vaccination is a guarantee of chronic illness occuring as a side effect from the vaccine. We and our dogs are in such a state of *chronic illness*, we don't even know what *healthy* is.
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Post by Willow on Jan 30, 2004 13:08:22 GMT -5
Some info. on vaccines:
"The two forms of vaccines available are the modified-live (MLV) and the killed vaccine. For obvious reasons, the Rabies vaccine is a killed product...the MLV's are the viruses that were once alive and now have been chemically attenuated (altered) so that they are still recognized by the body but are, theoretically, not able to cause the full blown clinical disease. Typically, the chemical agent used to alter the virus is fromalin or formaldehyde, a known carcinogen. Attenuating the virus so that it cannot attach to a cell wall and infect that cell is a good idea, but not all the virus particles may be altered. Some may escape attenuation and are free to cause disease. This may be part of the reason that we see 'breaks' in vaccinated animals. There has also been much speculation that these MLV's have shed into the environment exposing other animals, including wild animals, to these diseases.
Additional components of the vaccines are the preservatives that do what preservatives do. These ingredients are also known in current medicine to be carcinogenic agents, including a compound called thymersol, a mercury derivitive and aluminum, used to attenuate the viruses. We all know the possible effects of aluminum.
Even the cells these viruses are grown on can produce allergic reactions in the body. Some of the tissue lines used are from ducks, monkeys, pigs and the like. These could be creating much of the constant itching, inflamed bowel, and eczematous ears that are so prevalent.
Now: Here is what she has to say about the issue you brought up Laura, as to whether an animal or person, for that matter, can get a disease from a vaccine. I know you say that human vaccines are made from dead virus and therefore cannot possibly cause the disease, but even the dead virus' stimulate the immune system to such a degree that it can *turn on itself*, plus since the Rabies vaccine is made from a dead virus, it should not cause rabies symptoms in dogs, right? Read on.
"I would vaccinate animals and they would break out with the disease. Perfectly healthy animals coming down with the diseases they were being vaccinated against! It was embarrassing and horrifying that I caused these illnesses. The biologics companies told me their vaccines could never have caused the illness. They justified this by saying that the animals must have been incubating the illness and it coincidentally came out at the time of the vaccination."
(How often have we heard that about the flu vaccine?)
Back to quote: " When a perfectly healthy individual is given viruses that cause illness, the animals is going to manifest illness-related symptoms. This healthy individual is asked to maintain a low-level state of rabies, and so on. As long as you are in a low level state of illness, you are not in a high level state of health. Therefore, the vaccines provide protection by keeping the body in a diseased state of health. Often the animals will not manifest the illness it is vaccinated for, at least not in its accute form, but it will manifest in other conditions. Usually these conditions are inherited weaknesses.
Chronic symptoms look very much like the acute illnesses but they are often not life-threatening unless allowed to continue for years and years.
For distemper we often see: Water fluid dripping from the nose. Conjunctivitis, eye discharge, entropion Chronic gastritis, hepatitis, pancreatitis, appetite disorders, recurrent diarrhea, sensitivity to food with resultant diarrhea, Epilepsy, rear leg paralysis, spondylitis, Lip fold dermatitis, Excessive licking of feet, eruptions between the toes, allergies, Kennel cough, chronic bronchitis, Chronic skin eruptions, especially lower half of body, Failure to thrive, abnormally thin.
For rabies we often see: Restless nature, suspicion of others, aggression to animals and people. Changes in behavior, aloofness, unaffectionate, desire to roam, OR clingy, separation anxiety, 'velcro dog'. Restraining can lead to violent behavior and self-injury. Self-mutilation, tail chewing, Voice changes, hoarseness, excessive barking, Chronic poor appetite, very finicky, Paralysis of throat or tongue, sloppy eaters, drooling, Dry eye, loss of sight, cataracts. Eating wood, stones, earth, stool. Destructive behavior, shredding bedding, Seizures, epilepsy, twitching. Increased sexual desire, sexual aggression. Irregular pulse, heart failure. Reverse sneezing.
And....for those of you who have cats: Panleukopenia in cats we see: Lazy cats, lie around most of the time. Finicky appetites, Chronice fever for weeks, with few symptoms. Possible enlarge cervical lymph nodes. Poor groomers, Chronic dehydration leading to cystitis and calculus formation, Emaciation, hyperthyroidism, Inflammatory bowel disease, Chronic respiratory problems, sinusitis.
One last thing and then I will quit:
Here's what she has to say as to why she feels the way she does about vaccines:
"Now you could be wondering why I am so bold to 'blame' all these and more on vaccines. The reason is simple: I have an empirical, call it experimental lab where I visit daily and watch the animals, year after year. In the short years of my career I have seen the incredible increse in all these illnesses, some we never even learned in vet school. In fact, my vet school is now primarily an oncology treatment center! This was not the case a short 20 years ago. I have also spoken to many vets who have practiced longer than I (she's been a vet 19 yrs.), and their response is the same. They did not see the level of chronic illness, nor the resistant and concretized type of illnesses that we see today.
She then goes on to talk about the benefits of treating homeopathically for these illnesses, and the alternatives you can give to vaccines.
Does anyone want to choke me by now to shut me up? ;D
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Post by Laura on Jan 30, 2004 14:38:38 GMT -5
Nah, I love a good debate! As a scientist, you know what word in that paragraph stops me? EMPIRICAL . Now, as for the evidence of vacs creating the symptoms of the diseases, now we have to go back and look at the genome evolution from each generation, and breeding in general (human or dog ;D). I'll put it in laymans term before I trip over my own tongue . If you go back 100 years ago, cancer was a relatively rare disease, human or canine. But 100 years ago, the poulation wasn't nearly as dense as it is today, we've created new strands of genomes with breeding (it's a small world after all ;D) human or canine. And with every passing generation that has created new genomes, you've also created the possibilties of inheriting new diseases and the immune system that is compromised right from the get go. Add to that the environs in which we live (smoking, pollution, advanced technology, etc.) and it's a recipe for medical trouble. So when you're talking about the vaccine creating the disease, it is in all likelyhood that the propensity for carrying it was already in place, thereby making a small segment of the population more likely to suffer the side effects of the vac. Now, while we lived healthier lives 100 years ago relatively disease free, the average life span was about 55-65 years, today we live longer, but with more disease. So the same could be applied to our pets, 100 years ago they had shorter life spans due to the lack of medical care, diet, etc., but nobody's dog died of cancer, just of old age, but today, the canine population has mutated much more dramatically than humans (and grown to mammoth proportions), thereby creating more genetic problems. Ok, now I need a nap
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Post by Willow on Jan 30, 2004 15:19:30 GMT -5
I actually understood that!! And , I agree with you!! ;D BUT! I also think there is a lot of merit to the vaccine's contributing to it too. I don't think we can attribute our decline or improvement in health to just one factor. My husband, however, blames everything from crime to disease, on the increase in population. I think that it is over simplification to do that. I was always the kind to just take my pets to the vet for their vaccines etc., and dump some kibble in their bowl once or twice a day and call it *good*. Anything beyone that was *boring* to me, unless it had to do with the actual training. Then my dogs began to have health issues and I suddenly became very concerned and interested, esp. since repeated trips to the vet and a series of different drugs, antibiotics etc. did not help them. They just continued to get worse. while my wallet got thinner! Since looking for alternatives to allopathic treatment which wasn't working, I see a huge improvement in them, and even though it may be *empirical* on my part ;D, I can't deny the results, nor the results other's are having by going this route also. For what ever reason, what I am now doing is working for us, and that's good enough for me. ;D
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Post by amyjo on Jan 30, 2004 15:43:48 GMT -5
For me personally - I am not convinced vaccines are a bad thing but I am concerned about over vaccination and I think vaccinating for a bunch of stuff all at once could be a big problem. I don't mean to keep harping but I still can't come to grips with the fact that my dogs received thier yearly vaccs in late March last year - plus a 3 year rabbies vaccine and a pro heart shot and by the end of May Mickey was dead and Elvis had a malignant melanoma. I know my evidence is antecdotal but these dogs were in good health and had all the reccommended tests for senior dogs with all excellent results so I guess my big question is WTF? The stuff I read about asking the immune system to handle that all at once makes quite a bit of sense. I mean sure it could have all just been a nasty coincidence -one of fate's little jokes. But I think from now on I will be alot more careful about what goes into my dog's body's and on what schedule.
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Post by Willow on Jan 30, 2004 17:00:39 GMT -5
Well, Amyjo, as you said...it's hard to say, but does seem strange that this happened shortly after their booster's. For one thing it says right on the vaccine inserts that only *healthy* pets should be vaccinated and it gives warnings for *older* pets too, but what is the first thing Vets do if you bring in a sick animal? Right. Vaccinate it and give it HW, flea/tick prevention etc. I had an elderly cat die on me after giving him Frontline, which my Vet told me to do, because he had a couple fleas on him. As far as we knew, he was *healthy*, but he was elderly. My dogs are 7 and around 12, so they are not getting any more vaccinations. Most vets will tell you at this age they don't need anymore. A friend in Montana had a brother in law with cancer. He went into the hosp. for something and they gave him the flu shot, pneumonia shot and filled him full of antibiotics. His liver and kidney's immediately failed and he died like a week or so later. Was that a coincidence too?
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Post by Nicole on Jan 30, 2004 17:35:37 GMT -5
Since we are now in debate, I have two questions?
First, if you don't vaccinate ever (or just give puppy shots)and you don't to titers and/or aren't willing to vaccinate even if titers are very low, are you just willing to hope that your dog doesn't contract the disease and that it is caught in time to be cured?
Second, do you think that unprotected dogs are not getting heartworm and common canine diseases because most all dogs are on preventative meds and are vaccinated. Thus, it would follow that the available pool of diseased transmitters is low. And by leaving dogs unprotected do you believe that this could ultimately contribute to the increased spread of heartworm and other canine diseases. Even if only a handful of unvaccinated dogs come down with distemper, rabies, parvo, HW do you believe that this could ultimately change the course of eradicating or at least controlling the spread of these canine diseases?
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