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Post by Willow on Jan 23, 2004 15:43:42 GMT -5
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Post by Dobemom on Jan 23, 2004 15:46:07 GMT -5
Thanks, Loey! Its so nice to be able to post links and follow them, if you catch my drift
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Post by sibemom on Jan 23, 2004 15:52:58 GMT -5
Hats off to Loey ;D I was hoping you would post something like that. And yes those links were easy to follow I hate getting lost I like the options that are now available to me rather then doing something just cause the doc said so. I was really mad at my FORMER VET because of his sudden attitude of dis-belief when I told him of the problems my pup had with his heart worm meds. Instead of trying to find something else that would work he just told me that "Well he is only sick for a few days and gets over it right?" OH THAT MADE ME MAD I wanted to shove that HW pill right down his ::)Well throat
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Post by Aussienot on Jan 23, 2004 18:48:02 GMT -5
I feel really lucky that my small town vet is cautiously supportive of raw feeding, and is open to doing titer tests instead of automatic vacs. He suggests non-chemical treatment options whenever appropriate. He even offers referals to a naturopath and a canine physiotherapist if that is a better course of treatment. He's more a 'watch and wait' if it's not critical.
However, most of the people I train with in three different clubs hate his approach and drive a long way to use other more traditional vets. I've heard a lot of people critisize him for not agressively treating or expecting them to do a lot of extra work instead of just prescribing a pill. I respect their knowledge about dog training, but just don't share their "shoot 'um, drug um and cut um" medical style.
I am starting to appreciate why more vets don't take the alternative approach. Not only is it less profitable, I don't think the majority of the public want it . . . yet.
Thanks for the links. Finn has started his seasonal itchy skin cycle, so timing is good.
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Post by Willow on Jan 23, 2004 20:29:12 GMT -5
Makes me feel good that a lot of you out there are open minded enough to at least check it out before condemning it !
Thanks to Ann doing the *leg work* so to speak, I will be taking my dogs to a vet who is open to raw feeding etc., and I am also considering having her do acupuncture on them. They are getting older and one does have arthritis in one back leg. I had him xray'd and saw it.
Aussienot, do you put topical flea/tick preventative on your dog in the spring/summer? That is a huge reason a lot of dogs have *allergies* (allopathic vets call it allergies, but don't tell the real cause!) and then they prescribe anti-histamines, which is the worse thing to do, because they can produce like a *rebound* effect and make it worse.
Another reason dogs itch is from vaccinosis. Do you regulary get booster shots this time of year? The itching can begin right away or not for several months. My dogs were so bad they were losing patches of hair etc., because they also had recuring bouts of Sarcoptic Mange and the drugs just would no longer work, but after getting them off of vaccines and Frontline etc., and having them treated by a wonderful homeopathic Vet, they are completely healed now and no more itching!!!
Another reason for *allergies* is if you are feeding a food with grains. Most dogs do not do well on grain and it is not needed.
If anyone is interested I would be happy to post a rmb's menu to make it easier if anyone is thinking of going that route. It can be a bit daunting at first, but it doesn't take long (a couple of weeks at most) and it becomes very easy.
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Post by sibemom on Jan 23, 2004 20:42:10 GMT -5
I have to admit I thought the natural diet was going to be much harder than it really is. I have also found that individual dogs have individual tastes just like humans. My pup does not really care for beef his favorites are poultry and sardines (yes I know it's gross but remember who we are dealing with here .) The raw bones do not have to be anything real special because if you combine their protein and bone in one serving say a chicken leg quarter the percentage of bone to meat is balanced very well. I also thought the cost was going to be so much greater and it's not. When I go shopping now I shop for the WHOLE family it is very easy. The only odd thing I buy just for Blade is chicken livers, hearts, and gizzards, of course my men would never touch those kinds of foods I took some of the menu's that Ed Frawley has on his site and just formed them with a little trial and error to fit my pup. It's working great no more itch SOME of the bad behaivor has stopped still working on the rest . The best part was he adjusted to this right away that was my clue that this was the right choice for him. I am adding the salmon oil twice a week just as a precaution to make sure he gets the zinc that he needs.
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Post by Brooke on Jan 23, 2004 20:52:52 GMT -5
I would love if you posted your menu Loey! I almost emailed you a couple months ago about that.
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Post by Willow on Jan 24, 2004 18:40:50 GMT -5
I have added it to the Health section. ;D
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Post by Brooke on Jan 25, 2004 0:29:31 GMT -5
Gravy! ;D Thanks Loey!
Aussie I love your avitar. What a cutie!
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Post by Richard on Jan 25, 2004 8:05:15 GMT -5
Thanks, Loey! Its so nice to be able to post links and follow them, if you catch my drift Yes but were the proper forms, documents and urine tests sent out to allow such a procedure? Anyway, part of this thread interested me. Come spring and flea time, I use a liquid (and I cannot remember the name) that I put on a few spots on Rockford's back. It does do a good job but as the summer goes on, he'll start scratching one of his ears (sticking that big 2x4 back paw in there)....I thought it was dry skin, the fleas but based on what you guys say, it could be allergies..cuz come November, when we finish the allergie med, he doesn't go after his ears as much (and they look much nicer)....so the stuff you brought up is interesting indeed. Now, here is the million dollar question, what is an alternative?? I know, getting back to the food thing for a bit, if you look at the big picture, most of the food we eat and what we feed our dos (not the raw diet) is made for one thing: convenience...simple, fast, hot on the table (or in the bowl) and done....people don't have the time anymore to make those long preperations for dinner...but the marketing people keyed in on that and now you have microwave dinners ...and you can even buy a microwavable roast now (ready in 8 minutes!....and it has its own gravy!!!!)....so its not surprising this type of mentality would go over to our pets....fast, quick, get 'em in, get 'em out.... I feed Rockford eukunuba for large breed dogs (first puppy then adult). I chose that line because of a few reasons: it is a quality dog food, very balanced after the research I did for the best type of food, and it is what the Toronto police dog service feeds thier dogs and you've never seen a healther looking group of dogs (and you certainly don't want them chasing you either!!). I never considered raw but I am willing to take a look at the facts. Other than some dry skin in the ears come the flea season Rocky is a very healty 90.5 lbs (we just had our yearly checkup with the vet last week) so the food we feed him must be working somehow but there is always another way to do things...Willow, howz the preperation time and how much do you make at a time?? We feed Rocky once a day..with the schedule you put up for raw, will that change for him too? Can I also bring up another item for discussion.....does the many different types of breeds of dogs (and thier inherited breed specific problems) be a cause of a reaction to the food ect....? I sometimes think, lousy breeding, cheapy food ect can cause a lot of problems too.... Just a few things to chew on... -Richard
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Post by Willow on Jan 25, 2004 10:49:03 GMT -5
Hi Richard, Switching to a raw diet will not affect feeding once or twice a day. Just give the ground meal on the two days as indicated, and then give the rmb's on the one day, as indicated. You would just feed the amount, according to your dogs weight in the one meal, is all, instead of in two, as I do. Grinding the veg's is a little time consuming, but it doesn't have to be done every day. Some raw food feeder's don't add the veg's at all, as most say it is not necessary to feed veg's, but I do like to feed some veg's several times a week at least, even if it's just leftover cooked veg's from one of our meals, and raw veggies when I eat them. Any brand of commercial dog food is not good for the reasons stated in my other post on dog food. Ear infections, and *allergies* are usually caused by commercial foods, vaccinations, HW preventatives, and topical flea/tick preventatives. Here is another good link on vaccinations: www.bullovedbulldogs.com/vaccines.htmHere is one on the topical flea/tick preventatives: www.nrdc.org/health/effects/pets/execsum.aspA dog with a strong immune system, from feeding a species appropriate diet (raw) will not get fleas or mites. People who have been feeding raw and not putting the chemicals into their dogs bodies for awhile to allow the immune system to become healthy do not have a flea problem. The dogs will still get ticks, but what most do, even with long haired dogs, is have a once a day check and pick off the ticks. Here in Wi in a bad tick year, that can be as many as 30 ticks. That is of course, if you live in the country or regulary take your dogs for walks in the country. It may sound like a *pain* and time consuming to do this in our busy world, but it's actually a great bonding experience with your dog. They love the attention! Here's some more facts about vaccinations: First, they cause the formation of auto-antibodies. Auto-antibodies means antibodies against the dog's own tissue. These antibodies may lay dormant and never become active, or they may kick into action and cause Autohemolytic anemia (I think that's the right name), Lupus, diabetes, rheumatoid arthritis, allergies, etc. No one knows what the triggers are, but Purdue is doing a study on this as we speak. It's a proven fact that all vaccinated dogs form these auto-antibodies, as you will see if you read the following articles: www.dvmnewsmagazine.com/dvm/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=35188www.homestead.com/vonhapsburg/haywardstudyonvaccines.htmAnother thing vaccines do is damage and change DNA. This is discussed in the *bulldog* article above. Vaccines cause chronic disease. They may prevent acute disease, but we are replacing that risk with a guarantee of long-term poor health. I don't feel the trade off is worth it. A good book on the danger's of vaccines is: What Vet's Don't Tell You About Vaccines" by Catherine O'Drisscoll. We have been brainwashed to believe they really work. The immune system is the best defense against disease. Build that up with a good diet and no chemicals and your dog will be healthy. Honest. ;D You asked about (poor) breeding as a cause for disease. The sad fact is, even well bred dogs whose ancestors have been fed commercial foods, vaccinated and had other chemicals put into their bodies, will pass the resulting *vaccinosis* on to their off spring. Then we take our puppies in for their *puppy thingytail* of the, so called *necessary vaccines* to insure they stay healthy and it just makes matter's worse. You would be surprised to hear how many puppies get sick and die AFTER their shots, not before! I could go on and on...and I probably will , but this is enough for now. It's a lot to digest and think about at first, but once you get into it and start seeing the results you know it's worth it! Mine are finally on their way.
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Post by Willow on Jan 25, 2004 10:56:11 GMT -5
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Post by Richard on Jan 25, 2004 12:58:22 GMT -5
Hi Willow....
Thanks for the information....I went to the one site about flea and tick stuff and the product they reccomend using is the one we use right now so in one way, I am happy about that. I also see what you mean by the fact that the dogs diet has a LARGE affect on his/her health and one of the beneficial side effects is not having to use the flea/tick stuff at the beginning of the season (if I read it right).
As for the allergies and food and the rest, I will have to talk with the girls about that(since it will be a team effort getting this all together)....and of course, I'd love to get my vet's opinion too (I mean, like everything else, they would have an opinion and perhaps they believe in the raw food diet as a vialble alternative to the "mass produced" dog foods).
Thank you for providing all the information here (and Ann too of course) so that I can make an informed decision on where to go from here. I guess the biggest part will be the change from just opening the container and tossing in the kibble and feeding Rockford...ahhh, that convenience thing again....
-Richard
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Post by Nicole on Jan 25, 2004 13:15:05 GMT -5
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Post by sibemom on Jan 25, 2004 13:29:46 GMT -5
Eukanuba hey? Ouinn will be happy to hear that ;D Well I tried to get my pup to eat it and he wanted no part of it. When I did feed kibble I used the purina mills Exclusive which is the same formulation as Eukanuba but he just got to itchy. The raw diet has made a wonderful difference in him. I started his homeopathic treatment yesterday now we will see if the rest of his issues clear up. As far as flea treatments go, Loey is right a healthy dog does not get flea's. What I do to maintain his immune system is not only give him the appropriate diet but I add Salmon Oil, 2x per week and he gets fresh minced garlic, 3x per week. I know there is negative info on garlic but I have fed it to all of my dogs, which were not ever treated with flea products or heart worm meds. All of them tested heart worm negetive and never had a flea in their lives. Garlic is an immune system booster. What flea or mosquito in their right mind would drink the blood of a dog that regularly eats garlic? That's the point they don't. For ticks I found that placing some cedar shavings in their outdoor runs or dog houses keeps them off too. There are also some natural plant extracts used in tick controll. Not sure which ones I would have to look that up. I am really glad that everyone is so open minded to this subject. Even if you decide it's not for you the research alone is alot of fun because you learn so much ;D
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