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Post by willow on Sept 23, 2006 15:55:13 GMT -5
I don't really know what to call it, but I have seen Cesar use it and it does work well.....
However:
I have only seen him use it on dogs who are aggressing towards other dogs or small animals, and the dogs I have seen him use it on are always on leash, so I really don't think it would be appropriate to use it in the case of a puppy or older dog who is fussing in a crate.
That said, here is how it is executed:
Dog is on short leash on your side. He sees another dog or animal and become fixated on it, perhaps barking, growling etc..... Cesar breaks the fixation on the other dog/animal by "poking" the dog on the side of the neck or reaching around behind and tapping the dog on the thigh with his foot.
It is not a correction. It is not hard enough to hurt the dog. It is used only as a means of breaking the dogs fixation/concentration on another dog or animal and to get his focus back on you.
Again, I don't think it would be appropriate to use this for anything other than dog/dog dog/human or dog/animal aggression, or perhaps say, if the dog is fixated on a vehicle, or person on a bicycle in an aggressive way, like he wants to chase it.
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Post by Nicole on Sept 23, 2006 16:04:57 GMT -5
That is what I thought when you had explained it previously. That it is to distract from a fixation. And I have no problem with that assuming the person knows what they are doing and knows that they aren't going to get bit. But to say that a dogs neck should be pushed as a correction is just over the top. Honestly his posts are making me want to go pure PP. And I am sorry if that is rude but enough is enough of giving advice to people when you don't understand training at all. That is all I will say because I don't know how to be so nice when I am disgusted, like the rest of you fine people.
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Post by Am on Sept 23, 2006 16:29:26 GMT -5
I have tried something very similar with my DA staffy bull. Tried distracting him with a mild leash pop when he goes off at another dog, then asking him to refocus on me. In my experience, it can work sometimes. But there are a couple of issues with it. Firstly, if you're too close to the other animal or your dog is intensely aggressive, this will not break your dog's focus (with my SBT, when he really goes off at a dog, physically removing him from the other dogs presence is necessary to break his focus. But like I said, he can be pretty darn intense). Secondly, it doesn't tell your dog what to do once the focus is broken. If I seized the chance when his focus was on me to tell him to do something else, then we were fine. But just popping him didn't work! In my experience, my dog would look at me when I corrected as if to say: "You wanted me? Nope? Well, I guess I'll just keep posturing at the other dog, then, cos it's fun!" In conclusion, this just didn't work well for my DA stafford. Perhaps it would work for dogs with milder aggression or a different type of aggression, I just don't know. And if anyone else has personal experience with this working for extreme, long term, rank based dog aggression, I'm happy to hear from them. What has worked for us, at least somewhat, is building prey drive and keeping the dog under command when around other dogs (the chance to earn a prey drive reward being a sufficient motivator to normally keep him focused on me despite the other dogs, most of the time). He'll never be trustworthy socialising with other dogs, but now at least I can work him offleash in their presence at obedience school. Just my own (hard earned) experience with my own (little snot of a) dog.
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Post by sibemom on Sept 23, 2006 16:40:23 GMT -5
YEP that is how he does it Cesar does not deal with alot of crate issues, so we really would not know what his take would be on that. I think I did see one episode where he used a small crate but then I think he also said that you do not use the crate for punishment it is their safe zone I do not remember what he did when the dog kept barking which was the reason to crate it to begin with the dog had ANXIETY BIG TIME and the people were getting eviction notices. I am just going by my own observations from watching his show and reading his book. He says and this is not a quote but if you touch the dog at the inappropriate moment like when they are excited like barking in their crate for an example you are actually assisting the behavior to continue you are nuturing that unbalanced state of mind. I don't see him ever use what I would call a HAND correction meaning a hand directly to the dogs body to correct, like you said it is a Distraction by poking them or touching them with your foot, to redirect the mind onto something else. He always uses the leash to correct the dog. When he does the SHHHHHHH that to is a distraction just like when we use AH AH AH or one of my favorites HEY, it's to snap them OUT OF THE ZONE and redirect their attention to you. I watched the DVD again and yes he is saying that the hand mimics the mothers bite, he also says it is to redirect the mind, he never says or does what a mother dog would really do and that would be BITE AND HOLD. I watched my females they would not just pinch and release their pups, they would do what we call almost an ALPHA ROLL That was a correction by Mom. So maybe that is the grey area that people do not understand, he does not correct with his hand or foot he DISTRACTS and if you notice to sometimes he does offer a leash correction with it. For me it was pretty easy to follow him because what he does is pretty much the way I always did things.
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Post by willow on Sept 23, 2006 16:51:00 GMT -5
Yes, and he also uses the Shhhhhhhhhhhht at the same time, and he keeps doing it until the dog calms down and sits quietly.
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Post by Nicole on Sept 23, 2006 17:15:34 GMT -5
Just so that I am clear. When you say poke are we talking about the plain meaning of poke as opposed to a neck tennis ball squeeze?
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Post by sibemom on Sept 23, 2006 17:16:57 GMT -5
Well I don't know about that AM I have had personal experience with EXTREME DOG ON DOG AGGRESION you know like the ILLEGAL DOG FIGHT TYPE, but the pinch collar corrections always seemed to snap it out of them. I also used the E Collar recently but only AFTER I did LOTS OF HOMEWORK AND ASKED LOTS OF QUESTIONS. I think Lou Castle got REALLY TIRED OF ME AFTER AWHILE If your dog is in that TRUE RED ZONE that does take a little different approach to not only keep them safe but YOU! I have had them turn to BITE ME from correcting, not my own dogs OH NO! But others peoples dogs and you have to have LIGHTNING FAST REFLEXES TO WORK THAT COLLAR. I think to for me I always worked them at a distance to get controll of the behavior because MOST OF THE TIME not all the time distance keeps the reactions less intense, then when I had no reaction from 30 feet we worked at 20 feet etc...untill they figured out everytime they reacted they were getting not a mild correction but a memorable one. If you have found a way to manage him then that's great. I do agree not all dogs are going to be extremly social with other dogs, you know like having play dates etc... but as long as you can keep him focused on you and keep him under controll that is what I would consider a triumph. I can't say that my dogs really care to mingle outside their own "PACK" structure but I do know, (WELL EXCEPT FOR BRODY I pick on him alot don't I if "I" bring a dog in they watch their manners very closely and I do have controll over them, AND BRODY IS GETTING MUCH BETTER he and Raven even slept in the same area with their paws touching
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Post by willow on Sept 23, 2006 17:21:00 GMT -5
Just so that I am clear. When you say poke are we talking about the plain meaning of poke as opposed to a neck tennis ball squeeze? It is a quick "poke", not a squeeze, but he says to cup your finger's as if you are holding a tennis ball, rather than poking with straight fingers.
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Post by sibemom on Sept 23, 2006 17:23:23 GMT -5
Yep SHHHHHHT goes along with that Nicki I think POKE MEANS POKE
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Post by sibemom on Sept 23, 2006 17:26:11 GMT -5
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Post by Nicole on Sept 23, 2006 17:38:00 GMT -5
Just so that I am clear. When you say poke are we talking about the plain meaning of poke as opposed to a neck tennis ball squeeze? It is a quick "poke", not a squeeze, but he says to cup your finger's as if you are holding a tennis ball, rather than poking with straight fingers. Well aren't you a little quoting expert now. So, the poke is really with all the fingers unless you do it Ann's way. I think I will pass on this. The thought of poking Sunny in the neck makes me a bit ill right now. I am curious to try it but don't need it for anything. I taught ignore...and he looks away. Maybe some other time if ignore stops working.
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Post by espencer85 on Sept 23, 2006 17:38:27 GMT -5
Yay ;D where should i start? i dont know but for some weird reason i think you were waiting for me to come Ok lets start coming from the other topic, being a pack leader does not mean being a dictador, you can't just say hey this is gonna be your happy place and you better take it like that, we can change behavior but we cant dictate what emotions a dog should have to things like a create, like i said, since choosing a happy place is not bad behavior then we can let the dog choose one himself, if we choose one for him we are just gonna make it hard for us because he wont say "oh a create= happy place" Nicole: since i'm not in front of you i cant tell you what amount of force you should be using, you make it sound that pushing a neck means to use the same force you use to slam a door, no, you can use the same force and when you take down a dominoes piece, is not the force what it counts is the meaning behind and the feeling of being touch Am: it does not matter if your dog is in one side of the fence and the other just 2 feet away in the other side, it works, BUT of course you are not just gonna go to the fence and sit there waiting for the dog to start going crazy, you have first to make your dog see you as a leader, leash correction is not just a "switch" that any person can move to fix it, also you have to avoid the dog to even give attention to something you know will trigger the behavior, if you let him do that he will go to another mental level and as higher that mental level then higher the correctin needs to be. Also humans LOOOOOVE to distorsion the truth to help themselves overcome things, the dog does not says: "You wanted me? Nope? Well, I guess I'll just keep posturing at the other dog, then, cos it's fun!", first of all because the dog in not doing it for "fun" as you think but you want to see it that way, example: lets say i hate dogs and i kick my dog, he he looks at me like saying " why you are doing this? it hurts" right? but since i love to do that i distorsion the truth and think that he is saying "oohh master i love when you kick me in the face, may i have another?" to help myself not to feel bad for doing it, since you dont think that the leash will help your dog then you lie to yourself to make you feel you were right from the beginning, you dont have to "find" something else to distract the dog with after the correction, if he looks at you after that he is actually saying "oh ok i didnt know you didnt like that behavior, sorry", he will even look back again to the dog because maybe he didnt take you seroiusly so you may have to do it again, it does not matter if you do it 500 times, if you dont project the correct energy the dog will know and wont pay attention to you, so i can tell your dog does not takes you seriouly every time you do it, its ok, you just have to work on it Willow: i saw that episode, the create was the dogs happy place in this case, which is fine, i never said crates wont be but the human always is trying the dog to make it see that way, anyways, since it was his happy place then he felt better when the owners leave the house and left her alone, of course after taching her that behavior of being anxious was not allowed. I will have to strongly disagree in the part of "but if you touch the dog at the inappropriate moment like when they are excited like barking in their crate for an example you are actually assisting the behavior to continue you are nuturing that unbalanced state of mind." I'm whilling to bet anything you want that he actually says the opposite GIVING LOVE in the wrong moment is nurturing th behavior NEVER touching a dog (in this case the correction) will nurture that behavior, is like saying "what? you are mad at me? that means you want me to do it again right?" its just ilogical. "I don't see him ever use what I would call a HAND correction meaning a hand directly to the dogs body to correct" i can give you the season and episodes number when you can see him clearly doing that to a dog, one for example?: the dogs who bark at the vacuum, i bet youremember that he laves the vaccum to correct the behavior and it comes a time when he has to use the hand correction, another example?: the dog who barks from the window to the dogs outside from a couch, he uses hand correction again with him, like i said, i can give you season, episode and name of the episode so you can see he actually does it Have all of you a nice weekend
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Post by Am on Sept 23, 2006 17:56:58 GMT -5
Well I don't know about that AM I have had personal experience with EXTREME DOG ON DOG AGGRESION you know like the ILLEGAL DOG FIGHT TYPE, but the pinch collar corrections always seemed to snap it out of them. This isn't a thread about me, but hey, I love getting advice about my dog so I'm happy to hijack. When I start working him a distance away from the other dog, then correcting him works. I'm sorry if I didn't make that clear in my first post. But once I let him get "in the zone" and get revved up over another dog, then it's all over. I have yanked this dog right up off the ground by a pinch collar before while he was firing off at another dog, with no response. He went right back to posturing when I put him down. I can't imagine there would be a correction severe enough to break his focus that didn't also injure him (breaking a leg, maybe?) The only thing that works once he is revved up is to pick him up and remove him till he calms down. I try to avoid letting him get a chance to "rev up" now, and will put him under command when we're around other dogs so he is required to focus on me and not them. He is an intense dog when he's revved up about something. I once had him scratch his eyeball with a stick while we were playing fetch (vet said he ripped through approx half the skin layers in the cornea, when we looked afterwards it had left a very visible gouge in his eye). He shook his head after the accident, then bought the stick back to me to throw again for him. I didn't realise he'd actually hurt himself so badly till we got home. He's just an intense kind of dog, like his adrenaline sometimes overrides his concept of pain. He's never redirected when he's been aggressing, never snarled or snapped at me, never even looked at me funny - even when I have picked him up by various parts of his anatomy to remove him from the situation. I had a lady once jam her hand in his mouth while he was locked onto another dog ( not something I would ever try on my own dog, let alone a strange one, but I didn't realise what she was doing till she did it) and when she did this he let go long enough for us to whip him off the other dog. He's actually living with another dog now, a sweet and very submissive female crossbreed. We've never had an incident between them, though we'd never leave them alone together just in case. We can walk past most dogs on the street with no incident at all, he just doesn't care about them, and he's fine playing with most strange dogs (not that he often gets a chance to do this). I'm working him offleash at obedience school, and rarely does he even glance at any of the other dogs in class. It's only certain other dogs he hates, and I can't always predict which ones until I see him tense up - though he does seem to have a thing for yellow labs or retrievers, and other bullies. Not sure why. Even then, he's generally fine as long as I'm working him near then. But he could never be allowed to just go socialise with them. Hope that all makes some sense.
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Post by Am on Sept 23, 2006 18:05:32 GMT -5
it does not matter if your dog is in one side of the fence and the other just 2 feet away in the other side, it works Guess you haven't seen my other post yet. Poking my dog after he has already fired up does not work. Perhaps you could explain why my dog actively seeks confrontation with particular other dogs, then, if he does not find the adrenaline rush or the chance to dominate other dogs to be at all enjoyable? Espenser, can you tell me exactly how many intensely dog aggressive dogs have you rehabilitated? Because although I'm always open to advice, in the past few years I have heard so much conflicting advice that I'm more that a little bit skeptical about taking the word of anyone who hasn't had much practical experience about what they speak. So could you please tell me about the highly dog aggressive dogs you have worked with in this way, and what the results were? What other methods have you tried, and how do you know yours is the most effective? I also find it more than a little offensive when you tell me I am lying to myself and distorting the truth, especially since you know nothing about me, my methods, or about how much my dog's behaviour has improved since I adopted him. Perhaps you could moderate your tone.
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Post by sibemom on Sept 23, 2006 18:30:55 GMT -5
I think I was the one that said that about the touch and I don't know how to use the QUOTE and like I said I THOUGHT that is what he has said. I was mistaken not to start yet another debate, but when you said that you are not a dictator THAT IS NOT A FACTUAL STATEMENT. A dictatorship is EXACTLY what you are running when the population has NO SAY in what goes on. THAT IS THE WAY MY DOGS ARE TREATED. There is no MAJORITY RULING OR VOTING BECAUSE I AM THE MASTER, THE DICTATOR of sorts. I am the supreme being to my dogs. In my human family it is much different, I and my husband are the. wait OH HECK YEAH WE ARE THE DICTATORS only we can be swayed to listen to the majority I guess this whole crating thing can be veiwed in several ways. I do not correct my dogs while they are in their crate NEVER. I make sure they are calm before they go in and YES I HAVE DECIDED THAT THIS WILL BE THEIR PLACE. I have never had a problem, and I do IGNORE THEM if they get fussy. I do not say one single thing to them. I walk away, close the door and that's it. You see I DECIDE EVERYTHING where my dogs are concerned, where they sleep, what they sleep on, when they eat, when they play, and when we go for walks. You see these are animals being brought into a human world, and because they are pack orientated, they need to FOLLOW, so I make it very easy for them to follow me, I tell them what to do from the moment they get up in the morning till the moment they go to bed at night, the rules can get no clearer than that. I also decide when I give affection and when I do not. It is not uncommon for me to come home and not speak or look at or acknowledge my dogs untill I am ready to. I have complete controll to the best of my ability 24/7 and yes that even carries on to when I am not present. Are my dogs excieted to see me YOU BET, does that excitement change my mind about when I show them affection NEVER. If they push themselves at me, and believe me no matter how good a leader you are they will try I ignore them longer untill they have gotten over the wiggles, and then I call them to me. So yes I do believe that the relationship between you and your dog is a dictatorship, maybe that is a strong word, but when you look at it that is what it is and it is the HUMAN part of us that does not like to hear it called that. If it was anything else WE WOULD NOT BE THE PACK LEADER. I also will admit this, and that is I do use their crates as a sort of time out a CHILL TIME. I use it for them when they are over stimulated, and for myself when I GET OVER STIMULATED. I know they say NOT TO DO THAT but I do it all the time and when I say CRATE they go no questions asked, and they are HAPPY TO GO. So see I have decided that THIS IS YOUR SPOT, to let them pick the spot is giving them a choice and in essence letting them climb the preverbial PACK LADDER
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