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Post by sibemom on Sept 23, 2006 18:44:16 GMT -5
The other thing to is how do we really know that if you touch them when they are in the crate they do not percieve that as affection We are suppose to stay Calm Assertive, with our dogs and that would be the same energy you project when you show affection, because dogs can not understand emotion they feel ENERGY, so if I am calm assertive when I touch this dog, then how do we know he does not feel not think but feel, it is the same energy we have when we give affection Any other form of energy like tense or negative would escalate his excitement and frustration and would make things worse so you would stay calm assertive. If we are only using the HAND PUSH, then we are not really giving a correction, and this could be veiwed as affection. So in this case IGNORING THEM and giving something back like FREEDOM and CALM ASSERTIVE AFFECTION in ENERGY FORM, would prove to be more benefit. Dogs are manipulative but not in the same way humans are, close but different they do not manipulate for a specific purpose they do it to gain something that they value that is instinctual, thus by acknowledging their fussing and us going back and forth telling them SHHHHH, opening the door and giving them the HAND PUSH, is doing nothing more then them getting something from us that they value OUR ATTENTION. That is why I say IF I PUT YOU IN THE CRATE YOU WILL STAY THERE, CRY AND FUSS AS YOU WILL, BUT YOU WILL NOT COME OUT UNTILL YOU ARE QUIET AND CALM. That is conditioning just the same method you use to REHABILITATE
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Post by Richard on Sept 23, 2006 19:12:11 GMT -5
I also find it more than a little offensive when you tell me I am lying to myself and distorting the truth, especially since you know nothing about me, my methods, or about how much my dog's behaviour has improved since I adopted him. Perhaps you could moderate your tone. No Am, he actually meant all of us who hang onto a leash and try to correct our dogs using the proven training methods that we talk about here. Sorry Juan, you're off base on this one. You want energy?? All the energy I need is built on solid, reliable OB, respect and one phrase: thou shall not piss off the alpha dog! I can choose what kind of day he'll have: either you'll listen and comply or you'll not listen and we'll go do a bunch of OB and exercise until you figure it out what the pack order is here. Aside from the situation here: You said you got mad at your dog for pooping in the middle of the night on the kitchen floor (so your night sleep wouldn't be disturbed) and then say that the dog will think twice about doing that again cuz she'll know it'll upset you? What kind of energy is that potraying? If your dog doesn't know that you want her to hold her bowels all night cuz you find it too difficult to get up to let her out, what training method does that subscribe to - why confuse the puppy - this comes back to your expecting her to behave a certain way even though you've not demonstrated what you expect. See, that is the wrong method in this case. The correct time to get mad is when he or she gets into the garbage, tears up a couch or whatever. It's a matter of basing the correction on the situation. I say "knock it off" and my dog knows, no screwin around here, he's serious. Here, an example: you're a new employee at an office. Someone says you just answer the phone and take a message. You take a few phone calls. Another person comes in and says in a really mad intimidating voice, "hey, you're supposed to take the message, type it out, send it to these 14 people and fax it to head office"..you reply, "hey, I didn't know that" but they come back with,"you're working in a office, you should know what I expect here - why should I have to explain things?". If no one explains it to you, how are you to know....you know it's an office and the phone rings but not knowing what else is expected and then have the guy go nuts on you for not knowing leads you to being frustrated and not listening any more or maybe the next time buddy comes into yell at you, you'll give him a piece of your mind and not do anything what he wants. You can't expect a dog to know what the hell you want him/her to do just because he's a dog and they should know better. It's flawed logic and a poor training method. Now back to Am's concerns. Dealing with a dog/dog agression issue can't be solved by thinking your way through it or considering how my dog is looking at me. It's a serious training issue (Juan, that is a word you should consider adding to your vocabulary) that needs to be handled correctly. My GSD male had a serious dog agression issue at about a year old. He'd see another dog and want to go ballistic on him. That was my fault, I never took seriously how strong headed he was and that he was trying to take over as alpha and boss around any other dog he met. Once I got trained and understood what it meant to be an alpha the situation turned around 180 degrees. It was a situation that needed to be remedied and we did it through learning how to use a prong collar, non-stop OB, lots of excercise and me showing him that his best bet was to listen to me - the first time. Am, you've handled the situation well so far as far as I'm concerned. You've clearly shown that you understand your dogs trigger points and what dogs set him off. As long as he's happy with the other dog in the house, that is good. As for long range fixing of this behavior, you may never get him to like all dogs so it may just be something you'll live with, learn to predict and avoid. My GSD knows to "leave it" with other dogs (even when they're at the end of a line screaming and barking at him) but still once in a while, he'll see a dog that for some reason, pushes the right buttons and off he goes...I can correct and redirect but sometimes it's just in his mind (like your dog) to not like another kind of dog.
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Post by Aussienot on Sept 24, 2006 1:10:39 GMT -5
Dogs that are genetically high in fight drive do fight just for the fun of it. It's not fear, it's sport. Some of the bully breeds can be extraordinarily pain resistant when relaxed, and not just hard, but completely insensitive when fully engaged. So no amount of physical sensation gets through.
I have done an ear flick(just flipping the ear with my finger) with Finn when he is starts to fixate on another dog, which sometimes works to break his concentration. But it's a reactive tactic, rather than proactively preventing him from thinking about the other dogs. I think it is much better to take action to prevent your dog from becoming engaged.
A very good behaviorist/trainer told me that dogs can't be in two drives at the same time. So when a dog is fully engaged in prey drive, nothing else matters. One drive locks out the others. The world blurs.
Steve Courtney gave me a drive building exercise for Finn, putting going into drive on cue. We worked on it for about three weeks before proofing it around other dog. When I had to demonstrate it, yes, I was extremely nervous about having Finn off lead encircled by dobies, rotts and sheppys. They might as well have had targets painted on their head. But Finn went into prey drive on cue, and had eyes for nothing but the prize. The big posturing males no longer existed. He was a champ in that moment, but you bet I was quick smart about snapping the lead on when I was finished. All of the dogs that performed that day did exactly the same thing - they were blind to the presence of the other dogs when they were in prey drive.
So I think you are on the right track, if your dog has enough prey drive to develop. Working in drive is a whole different level of training, and you also need to be able to switch off the drive on command.
I think you've done a fantastic rehabilitation job to have him engaged in group activities. Keep realistic expectations for this dog. Look at how far he as come. He may not be one that can ever be expected to mix socially. That's not a bad thing, it's just the part of the deal you made when you took him on.
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Post by Am on Sept 24, 2006 2:21:14 GMT -5
Dogs that are genetically high in fight drive do fight just for the fun of it. It's not fear, it's sport. Some of the bully breeds can be extraordinarily pain resistant when relaxed, and not just hard, but completely insensitive when fully engaged. So no amount of physical sensation gets through. Glad it's not just my dog that's crazy. OMG - the world is a very small place. I'm currently doing this very programme, I think, through distance learning with him. With the goal of putting my dog's prey drive onto cue, so I don't need to produce the toy to get the response. It's great to hear that this worked for Finn, since it has been quite hard work so far with Monster. He has crazy drive for sticks/small animals/squeaky toys, but getting it on cue for the tug toy seems to be a challenge. Thanks for the advice. I'll be content when I can take him out and work him near any other dog - leave him in stays and such like with other dogs milling around and him not breaking the stay to fight - I don't really care anymore if he can interact with them socially or not. I think we're slowly getting there, though it's been a very long journey.
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Post by sibemom on Sept 24, 2006 7:53:35 GMT -5
WONDERFUL Thus comes in the statement made by Cesar Millan that I keep in mind at all times "Work with Mother Nature not against her." With a dog like Finn and with your dog Am that would be exactly what you are doing. Taking what mother nature has already BUILT INTO THE DOG, and working with it to harness the BEAST so to speak in a way that is best for both. See I do not believe that this particular trait is BREED specific I believe it is found more in certain bloodlines of the same breed. Animal, Dog, Breed is a good concept to keep in mind and I do believe it goes in that order, but I also believe that Genetics play a major role in how a dog is wired. That would explain like with GSD'S why some bloodlines have produced more aggresive more PREY DRIVE etc... while others have produced the "GUIDE DOG/SERVICE DOG TYPE" A dog that has just picked up some bad habits along the way and was never shown what was expected of them where people and other dogs are concerned is a whole diffrent issue then a dog that BORN with a very strong fight drive. I think the plan that you explain here Linda is the exact way and the most responsiable way to deal with they type of dog.
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Post by willow on Sept 24, 2006 8:15:00 GMT -5
but I also believe that Genetics play a major role in how a dog is wired. We may have discussed this in the past, but I think this is worth going over again and is a great topic for another discussion in the ?? debate??? section?
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Post by espencer85 on Sept 24, 2006 13:37:19 GMT -5
vicious should use more happy faces to avoid misunderstandings here about my tone I'll start with another Cesar quote about "aggressivee" breeds that fight "for fun": " Do “mean” and “vicious” dog breeds exist? Let’s get one thing straight. There is no such thing as a “vicious” dog breed. The truth is that ANY breed of dog, big or small, can develop aggression. Aggression is a symptom of an unsatisfied dog; a dog whose life is not being fulfilled. Some breeds, including “pit bulls,” Rottweilers, and German Shepherds, are more powerful than other breeds, so if they become aggressive, they can almost always do much more damage. Smaller dogs, like Chihuahuas, can often be defensive when fearful or nervous – you’d be a little surly too if you were constantly being treated like a purse! But when dogs of all shapes, sizes, and breeds are treated and cared for properly, they have the potential to be calm and balanced pets." Am:Your dog does NOT enjoy beingaggressivee, do you enjoy beingaggressivee? does a person who's agressive all the time is a well balanced person? Why do you think your dog tries to "find the adrenaline rush or the chance to dominate other dogs"? well is because just like you say he wants to be dominant, now, why he is trying to be dominant when you are suppose to be the pack leader? the pack leader is the only allowed to be dominant, followers are not, that means maybe you should work more with that aspect Sibemom: When is say we are not suppose to be dictators i meat that we should either say "look right, now chew 4 times your food but no more than 4, etc.", since choosing a happy place does not affect the pack then the pack leader does not impose a happy place to the followers, the pack leader make the rules but there is not way to make a follower "to like" something, thats why in the other thread the puppy does not like the create, there is no way the owner can make the puppy change his feelings about it, after a while the puppy may accept it but not after the puppy complains about it just like in that situation, by letting the dog choose his happy place himself we are gonna avoid that bad behavior at the beginning, of course if his happy place is my bed i can tell my dog "no, choose another", in my case my dog decided her happy place was under my bed BUT that does not mean that he can do whatever she wants in her happy place either. Be calm and assertive does not mean to be like that when you are giving affection, when you are giving affection you can be relaxed and the dog will know the difference. Ignoring bad behavior is using humanpsychologyy with dogs, just like Nanny 911 and her time out, not all the dogs will be quiet, we know that some of them will cry the whole night, you have to address the behavior EVERY time, if you let it pass once he will know he is allowed to do it and will do it more next time K9Rocky:[/bMaybee you are not getting my potty training method, of course if i get mad at my dog because she pooped at night she will have absolutely no clue about why since i didnt show her what it right from wrong, but if you read carefully i dont talk about how to do it starting at night riiiiight? no, i start saying that every time you see your dog doing it you clap hard and say "no", the clapping would be the re direction of her attention, the "no" (or even hey or shhh ) will be part when she gets she is doing something wrong, taking her out andrealizee thatoutsidee i'm relaxwhene she does it is what is gonna make her see the difference of my energy between inside and outside, during the day is the training, since she is notEinsteinn she is not gonna get it the first couple times but little by little, do you see the difference between my original post and youmisunderstandingg it? ;D
Have all of you a niceSundayy ;D
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Post by Am on Sept 24, 2006 14:34:31 GMT -5
No, let's not. If you have anything to say, please say it in your own words. If I wanted to read Cesar's book again, I'd get it back out of the library.
You use this terminology a lot - perhaps you could explain it clearly. What exactly is a "balanced" dog?
I don't know - I'll go ask my friends that enjoy adrenaline filled sports like kickboxing, boxing, martial arts, rockclimbing (oh wait, I'm one of them). We certainly feel happy and "balanced" (whatever that is supposed to mean), and also enjoy an aggressive adreline rush from time to time. Why should my dog be different?
Juan, you need to understand that my dog is not a wolf, he is a bull terrier dog. He has been bred for centuaries towards a predisposition to display aggression to other dogs. Just like a beagle tends to like to sniff and kelpies tend to like to herd, terriers and particularly bullterriers tend to be feisty with other dogs. It's natural for him to want to act on those man-made instincts.
Or do you debate that dogs have breed specific behavioural tendancies? There's a good reason why obedience competititors tend to gravitate towards retrievers, collies and shepherds and avoid terriers and hounds!
That's ridiculous. Sorry, but it is. The pack leader might be the most dominant member of a pack, but there is still a hierachy among the other members of the pack. Plus, we're not even talking about a pack here - we're talking about strange dogs meeting. When strange dogs meet, they do jostle to sort out pack hierachy. Add in a dog with a genetic predisposition towards dog aggression and that's when things start to get hairy.
I'll ask you again Juan, since I've asked you before and it went unanswered:
Can you tell me exactly how many intensely dog aggressive dogs have you rehabilitated? Because although I'm always open to advice, in the past few years I have heard so much conflicting advice that I'm more that a little bit skeptical about taking the word of anyone who hasn't had much practical experience about what they speak.
So could you please tell me about the highly dog aggressive dogs you have worked with in this way, and what the results were? What other methods have you tried, and how do you know yours is the most effective?
You see, anyone can come onto a board and start quoting Cesar Millan (or quoting Jean Donaldson, or Karen Pryor, or Sheila Booth, or Bernhard Flinks, or William Koehler, or whoever). It's easy to be an instant armchair expert when you're on the internet. But that doesn't mean that you have any real practical experience with the level of aggression that you're talking about.
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Post by Richard on Sept 24, 2006 14:41:34 GMT -5
No Juan, I understand.
You'd rather just wait for your puppy to squat, say "no" in a threatening tone, slap your hands and "shhh/hey it" into some sorta shock then move the puppy outside and expect her to finish the job? Is that about right?
I don't think there is too many ways to interpet that paragraph or your method and to be honest, it all sounds like a bunch of crap and it's getting pretty lame.
And I'm gonna tell ya more: you know what you'd probably end up with? A puppy that is afraid of you and/or afraid to have a bowel movement that is what.
It's like you're setting the puppy up to fail and unless you do time it right - which is really doubtful, your puppy is going to poop and pee thinking, why is this idiot yelling no at me - again? Just your saying no or whatever in a loud tone would be enough for the puppy to empty it's bowels right where it is.
It's the wrong method for a new puppy owner. People need something simple and they need something that works - like what I wrote or Willow wrote - not some stupid "catch your dog squating and redirect the energy" garbage.
It's not a method that is realistic nor workable in the real world - nor one I'd ever recommend to people even if it did come from Cesar or you or your version of Cesar.
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Post by sibemom on Sept 24, 2006 17:43:24 GMT -5
Juan you are using HUMAN PSYCHOLOGY AGAIN If I am the PACK LEADER then DOES IT MATTER TO ME IF THE LOWER RANKING MEMEBERS OF THE PACK ARE HAPPY NO IT DOES NOT. Do you think the Alpha Wolf cares if the pack is HAPPY I FREEKING DOUBT IT, all he cares about is that everyone keeps their place and follows his LEAD, because I can tell you one thing about animals and especially ANIMALS SPECIES DOG. If I am not a stable PACK LEADER: #1) My dogs will not follow me NO MATTER IF THEY ARE HAPPY OR NOT. They will try to OVERTHROW because they will sense I am weak and it is instinctual that even with dogs the weaker DO NOT SURVIVE. Have you ever seen a litter of puppies where one is weaker than the rest??? What happens? Either mom pushes it out of the litter or the other puppies push it away from mom, SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST, in the animal world domestic or wild the instict is there. #2) If I allow them to WHEN IN MY DEN (home) Choose where and what they want to be as their SAFE SPOT, I would then be SLEEPING ON THE FLOOR. So if my dog chooses my bed as his safe spot and I remove him and put him in his crate instead, does that mean I have just taken his happiness away? I DO NOT THINK SO. That means I have shown him that I HAVE DECIDED HE MUST SLEEP WHERE I SAY NOT WHERE HE SAYS, and when I put him there he will stay there NO MATTER WHAT untill I go back to let him out AE: QUIET GAINS YOU SOMETHING OF VALUE FREEDOM, and AFFECTION. #3) If my dogs have balance by rules, boundries and limitations, and I am a strong confident and FAIR pack leader then where ever I am and what ever I tell them to do, WILL MAKE THEM HAPPY because they will want to please me because by following the rules that gets them something the value and that is MY ATTENTION. Dogs need that, and they need for you to show them how to get that by setting the rules very clear for them. #4) It is not my job as a human to make my dog happy, if that was the case that would put them in a higher ranking position then me, and THEY ARE NOT! It is my job to treat them like a dog, and by doing that THEY DO BECOME HAPPY they become ballanced because they are allowed to live in a human world with many benefits, but allowed to live as a dog as a follower. I take all decision making processes away from them except when they have to potty. After I establish my role to them more often then not they chose to obey because disobeying would lead to correction and the absence of something they value like freedom, toys, and yes sometimes affection. Dogs are FOLLOWERS even a dominant dog who in a pack would be the leader of that pack will conceed to a very strong human leader. So untill you change your wording about MAKING YOUR DOG HAPPY. Then you really do NOT grasp the concept of being a pack leader you might have helped a dog or two but if you would come into my pack with the purpose of doing things to make them happy IT WOULD NOT WORK. Willow would be leading the the group and you would become HER FOLLOWER OH YES DO NOT DOUBT IT YOU WOULD, because what makes HER TRUELY HAPPY IS TO BE IN CHARGE well guess what SHE AINT not with me. We work with one rule around here and that is WHEN I AM HAPPY THE PACK IS HAPPY and I am happy when my dogs BEHAVE. SIMPLE.
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Post by willow on Sept 24, 2006 17:57:36 GMT -5
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Post by espencer85 on Sept 24, 2006 20:19:40 GMT -5
Am:Yes, let's do, in part because he explains the things better than me, I'm from Mexico so sometimes my way to explain it is not as good as him but is exactly what I'm trying to say "Why should my dog be different?" simple, because your dog is not human, in the dog's world being aggressive is being dominant, one thing is a dog's job (like sniffing) but another is dog's behavior, thinking that your dog is "naturally" aggressive is like saying all Mexicans are gardeners or all African Americans are rappers. "Add in a dog with a genetic predisposition toward dog aggression" your dog will never be aggressive if you dont want him to be aggressive, i've seen pit bulls who behaved way better than Chihuahuas, do you think a Chihuahua has predisposition to be aggressive? they do, so if a Chihuahua can be aggressive that why a pit bull can not be the opposite?. My wife had a friend who was having a Chihuahua who was aggressive, we went to visit her once, do you think the Chihuahua was aggressive to me? of course not, why? because he felt i was not there to be aggressive back, i didnt have to do anything the dog felt that i was not dangerous at all and felt that he didnt have to be aggressive to me, no talk, not eye contact, the dog was just curious about me and he came by himself to me
K9Rocky:"it all sounds like a bunch of crap and it's getting pretty lame." i think that you should use more happy faces when you talk because that sentence sounded really rude (which i was never toward you) so i wont answer anything of your posts to avoid myself misunderstanding again that you are being rude to me unless of course next time you pick better your words to avoid confusions
Sibemom: Like i said before, if the dog chooses your bed as happy place then you just like me will take him out of the bed and say "not there" he will know that he wont have a happy place in your bed, what he is gonna do? the dog wont be like " well my happy place is the bed but my owner does not let me be in it" of course not, he will just pick another!!! like i said, mine picked UNDER my bed, i agree that he was allowed to pick that one and thats it, by picking a "happy place" for your dog you will have to deal that he may not like it at the beginning because he wont know you want the create to be the happy place for him, you can manage behavior but never impose love for something, you can say "stay in this place because i told you to" but you can never say " love this place because i told you to", in the other thread situation it was clearly that the dog was not considering the create as a happy place since he clearly wanted to get out of it, nice he does not consider the create his happy place then you can go and correct the behavior there, EVEN if the dog was having a happy place that does NOT mean he is allowed to do whatever there (like crying or barking) or outside, because he feels he could do whatever and by only run to hide to his happy place he will think he wont have consequences since you wont correct him there
Thank you Am and Sibemom to talk as adults and not to be rude in this topic even if we dont agree ;D
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Post by Am on Sept 24, 2006 20:37:48 GMT -5
Am:Yes, let's do, in part because he explains the things better than me, I'm from Mexico so sometimes my way to explain it is not as good as him but is exactly what I'm trying to say Then why bother posting, if all you're going to do is quote someone else? We might as well just all go and read the book (actually, I think most of us already have). I'm sorry? If mexicans had been selectively bred for many years to be good gardeners, perhaps that would be an acceptable comparison. As it is, it's a pretty poor one. Being aggressive to other dogs was the job of the staffordshire bull terrier and the pitbull terrier, and they were selectively bred for it. They fought other dogs for a living. That's why so many of them are aggressive towards other dogs today. It's not just coincidence. It's genetics. Sure, some are less aggressive than others, just like some beagles are poorer trackers than others. It doesn't mean that the genetic predisposition isn't there, it just means it is stronger in some dogs than in others. And in the dog's world, being aggressive isn't synonymous with being dominant. A truly dominant dog does not need to be aggressive, since the other dogs know that he is dominant. On the other hand, a dog that is trying to become more dominant may be aggressive when other avenues fail. As will fearful dogs, or dogs that fight for sport. Well, obviously that's my problem. I just didn't want him to behave badly enough. I ask you again: So could you please tell me about the highly dog aggressive dogs you have worked with in this way, and what the results were? What other methods have you tried, and how do you know yours is the most effective? How do you know that this method is "the best" if you haven't studied any others? I'm beginning to suspect that you haven't got any personal experience in dealing with this type of severe aggression, and furthermore that Cesar's book is the only book on dog training you've ever read. Am I right?
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Post by Richard on Sept 24, 2006 21:00:22 GMT -5
Me rude? Well I've been accused of worse I guess. But since you asked:
It's not about agreeing or not agreeing or smiley faces - its about misinformation, contradiction and integrity. It's about getting the right information out to people based on real experience, not quoting from a book. It's about common sense training methods, ideas and tips that people can do without having to get a Phd to do it. It's not about telling people to go watch a TV show to solve thier problems either - that is not what we're about here.
You probably didn't even stop to see the posts of people who are regulars here and consider thier levels and years of experience. They know more than I'll ever know and deserve the respect that comes with experience.
You should be listening to them. I do.
Well, again, I hijack a thread, sorry Loey.
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Post by Laura on Sept 24, 2006 21:01:27 GMT -5
Sigh, if you're going to quote Cesar Millan, at least take it word for word.
Nobody used the word vicious, however, even Cesar has stated the following about dog on dog aggressison....
So while they might not fight for "fun" they certainly do have the fight drive genetically programmed into them, and THAT will not be fixed with a finger poke to the neck when the dog is in high drive.
Cesar Millan has some excellent training methodology, most that I agree with in some form, a little of it I disagree with, but for the most part I like him. And I've actually met and conversed with the man himself, so while I'm sure he would be thrilled at the thought of having a disciple out in the world preaching the leadership gospel, I'm sure he would also appreciate you having an original thought on these subjects and not misquote him.
Am has asked you for your credentials and experience in the training field, I would like to hear about them as well.
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