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Post by Richard on Sept 22, 2006 21:40:40 GMT -5
K9Rocky asked me, i answered, if they dont want to believe that you can have a well behaved dog without teaching him any commands then that means its too complicated for you, if you need to use commands to be able to handle a dog well good for you, i dont, i am not saying that then i am better than you but i simply dont need to talk to make my dog not to do stuff that i dont want her to do Just like PP trainers think that without treats they can't do anything, so like i said, if is too complicated for you then dont ask, i explained with apples and oranges, you didnt get it, there is nothing else i can do then, we can be here for hours and the result will be the same Conclusion: I can, you can't (or dont want to), nothing else to say Other than a bunch of quotes from Cesar, you've put nothing down of value to show/convince me that your methods are better than mine. It's not a matter of believing it's a matter of explaining..I can't be expected to figure out a complicated thing if you don't give examples to show me how you did it. You may of explained your ways with the apples/oranges thing but the inner portions have nothing of substance that can show me how you obtained your goals. I read the same book you did and somehow, I came out with different ideas and views of how I understand and train my dogs. Please don't insult me by saying this method you use is too complicated for me (or others here) or making it seem like if I can't do it your way, I must be a poor dog handler - really, that is uncalled for. I apologize to Masha for hijacking her post with this.
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Post by espencer85 on Sept 22, 2006 22:38:04 GMT -5
Dont put words in my mouth, i NEVER said that if you dont do it as i do then you are a poor handler, show me that quote and then i wont say i didnt, ACTUALLY i clearly had in bold "I am not saying that i am better than you" to just exactly avoid that kind of wrong ideas
The quotes are because he explains the things better than me an actually the quotes are saying how to have success that way
I remember that the quotes says: walk your dog, do excercise, be strong pack leader, etc. and i added E-N-E-R-G-Y projected, energy substitutes words in a dog's world, humans think that only with words they comunicate the things that want to be done but that is not true
I am NOT saying that you should stand up, put your hands in the front and start sending your "good vibes" to the dog, no, you have to see a dog point of view, think like a dog and act like one if you want yours to do what you want (that does not mean to go down and stick your tonge out)
I have read the book and yes is hard to apply that without seeing it, but once you see how to apply it and do it yourself you realize that really works, that is true, Cesar dont use one single word, like i said maybe he uses "sshhh" and thats it
I did that with my friends dog, he loved to run away every time the door was open, i showed my friend how to keep the dog in, in ANY moment the dog had to sit down, or laid down, the dog was all the time stanting i didnt say ONE single word and after 10 minutes the dog was right in front of the door without leash and us 10 feet outside in the street, the dog NEVER EVER had ANY kind of training, my friend was clueless about how to make your dog do ANYTHING, i was even able to have the other dog inside with the door wide open to the backyard watching me playing with the first dog and the ball, it was untill i gave him permision that he just came right out to play with both of us, even if i was showing my back and not paying attention the dog was not coming out, like i said, it toke me ONLY 10 minutes to accomplish that with 2 dogs without ANY previous training and were not mine AND not one single word
Do you think i would be here writing over an over if i only saw it on TV without knowing that really works? without doing it myself?
You dont need one single word simply because dogs dont talk to eachother, like i said if you cant believe that is possible then is ok, continue doing it just like you are and thats it, i've done it, it works, i know is possible.
Just like if i travel to the past and say "hey we are able to fly in the time i live" and then i get "what? thats impossible, how? i dont see you have wings" it does not matter how i explain it they will never believe that there is things that weight 10 tons and even like that they can be in the air
So lets leave it like that
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Post by Am on Sept 23, 2006 1:11:18 GMT -5
You can have your dog doing what you want without teaching any commands, Probably depends what I want my dog to do though, huh? I can think of lots of things I want my dog to do that require some kind of command. Firstly, walking beside someone is a taught behaviour. Dogs aren't born knowing to do this (even wolves don't constantly trail behind their 'leader'). I see no difference between teaching a dog to walk beside you and teaching one to recall on command. Secondly, what if I want my dog to roam free then recall when I want him back? If I can teach my dog "whatever" without any commands and without any rewards - doesn't this include recalling when I want him back? No offense intended, but from your introduction it didn't seem like you actually had that much experience training dogs. What exactly have you taught your dogs to do using Cesar's method? I seriously doubt it is too complicated for me. Like you, I have read the Cesar book and watched the Cesar TV programme. There's some good stuff there, but I don't agree with it all and I certainly don't think it's the be all and end all of dog training or behavioural management. For example, there are lots of things I do with my dog that Cesar doesn't touch on at all. How would I teach my dog to track using Cesar's methods, for example? How do I teach my dog to recall at the park, or drop at a distance? How does my dog even know what I want each time if I don't have a command to tell him (or am I just supposed to turn up at the tracking field or obedience trial and say shhh until my dog guesses right?) There are plenty of other really good resources out there on dog training, and to be frank, unless you've looked at and tried the other methods available, I don't see how you can have an informed opinion on the matter. Without doing research and trying different methods out then you don't know whether one method is better than another, whether one method is quicker or more effective, whether a method is more stressful to the dog, or whatever.
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Post by Richard on Sept 23, 2006 9:12:01 GMT -5
Dont put words in my mouth, i NEVER said that if you dont do it as i do then you are a poor handler, show me that quote and then i wont say i didnt, ACTUALLY i clearly had in bold "I am not saying that i am better than you" to just exactly avoid that kind of wrong ideas Ok, what does this mean then: Conclusion: I can, you can't (or dont want to), nothing else to say[/b] I agree.
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Post by espencer85 on Sept 23, 2006 9:26:00 GMT -5
Here in THIS topic we are talking ONLY about behavior, how to have a well behaved dog even if he does not know any commands
Now in the " dEBATE" forum we have a topic about how to teach commands, of course you can not come to THIS topic and say "how can i tell my dog to sit if i haven teach him how?" or in your case:
"How would I teach my dog to track using Cesar's methods, for example? How do I teach my dog to recall at the park, or drop at a distance? How does my dog even know what I want each time if I don't have a command to tell him?"
Thats in the debate forum, heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeere in THIS topic i said your can have a well behaved dog without commands, IF you want him to do specific moves like sit THEN you have to teach him that
"I certainly don't think it's the be all and end all of dog training or behavioural management. " and who said that? i didnt, did you?
You just dont want to believe is possible, i know it is, i did it my self, it can be done, i have seen it, etc.
You just keep asking because you want to prove your point that it can not be possible, you will NEVER PROVE your point to somebody you did it himself, just if like i tell you that is other places with people who speak a different lenguage outside USA and you tell me "what? other people outside USA? and they dont speak english? impossible!!" to which i will respond " dude i have been there, around them, you cant tell me is impossible"
You FEEL that i am saying that my method is better than yours, I HAVE NEVER SAY THAT if you feel that teaching commands to your dog works for you then congrats, i dont have to for her to be behaved, any of those methods is better than the other, they are just different
Dont try to understand something you dont want to do anyways, if you feel that you wont be able to control your dog without him sitting down then dont, if in the future i want to teach my dog how to "shake hands" then i will have to teach her, because that is something specific i want her to do, but she does not need it to be well behaved
I know your method works, i know mine does, the difference is that you think your does but mine doesnt, did you tried it? or you just know it wont work?
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Post by espencer85 on Sept 23, 2006 9:32:08 GMT -5
Ok, what does this mean then: Conclusion: I can, you can't (or dont want to), nothing else to say[/b] [/quote] Well it means exactly what you are reading, but you think that the words there mean "i am better than you" which do not, they are just different methods and thats it
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Post by Richard on Sept 23, 2006 9:53:04 GMT -5
I know what I am reading and it's fairly obvious now how you think.
For future reference, please just start off your posts with:
Read Cesars book, watch Cesars show episode.....
This threads usefullness is done, once again my apologies to Masha for turning into something else.
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