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Post by Am on Sept 19, 2006 14:34:08 GMT -5
I don't think I'd want to correct a nervous dog - wouldn't that just make the dog more nervous about that situation in the future? You can't correct fear out of a dog. I'll leave this to the others to debate, though, since they have more experience about this than me. I've never had or cared for a dog that didn't love to go in the car.
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Post by kaos on Sept 19, 2006 15:09:34 GMT -5
Me neither. All you could acheive with a correction is stopping the noise. This wouldn't address the problem of the dog being scared to travel. A bit like supressing a growl in an aggressive dog - you just end up with a dog that leaves out the warning and goes straight to the bite.
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Post by espencer85 on Sept 19, 2006 15:31:29 GMT -5
you have to calm her down first and then get her in Thats why i say that, so you dont have to correct a dog as nervous as he was before, she will still feel nervous, but no, correcting a nervous dog does not mean the dog will attack, even less if its the owner doing it, the dog trusts the owner, if it is a stranger maybe that would happen How many times have you seen a nervous person attacking another because he told that to calm down? it can happen, but if is your own family member is way too rare, the dog needs guidance, the owner can give it to him by correcting, correcting DOES NOT mean violence, in this situation means "ignore it" but since the dog is nervous he wont process the order with words, the quick pop in the leash helps, 80% of the dogs are submissive, so is more likely to do that after the correction than act dominant, specially since this dog has never shown dominance anyways
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Post by sibemom on Sept 19, 2006 16:51:38 GMT -5
I have to agree with " dOG" and put it in a different phrasing. Nervousness is a different type of EXCITMENT, a negitive form for that matter, and when the dog is showing this you want to make sure you redirect the dog to be CALM, you can do that by distraction and staying very calm and matter of fact yourself. I can see where this would work, by getting in the backseat and everytime the dog started to show excitement and fearful/nervous behavior giving a correction, and that correction could be just a simple poke and HEY or my favorite SHHHHHH . I can also see that after doing this a few times and making the car rides enjoyable where the dog would willingly want to go. It's not always true that a nervous dog will bite, some dogs are just anxiety riden and do nothing more than act extremly submissive, and then you have the fear biter that probably would attack if pushed to far. I would give this method a try, because it does sound like it would work
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Post by espencer85 on Sept 19, 2006 19:08:33 GMT -5
The poking works great, i did not know if i could talk about that method here since in another forums the people think that "poking" the dog is cruel
By being in the back seat you can direct all your attention to your dog and not be worry about driving, it works, i saw it on TV (i dont know if i'm allowed to talk about Cesar Millan's show) but thats the way he did it, while the owner was driving, he was doing that with a collie and at the end of the ride the dog was not barking anymore (that does not mean that you just have to do it once in his life and forget about it forever)
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Post by sibemom on Sept 19, 2006 20:14:53 GMT -5
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Post by willow on Sept 20, 2006 9:52:24 GMT -5
I am a cesar fan too, but I like to say he copied MY way of training, because I am older than he is and have been basically training this way longer than he has. ;D
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Post by sibemom on Sept 20, 2006 10:43:25 GMT -5
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Post by Nicole on Sept 20, 2006 11:32:25 GMT -5
The poking works great, i did not know if i could talk about that method here since in another forums the people think that "poking" the dog is cruel How is a poke cruel. The ssssssssssssst works so great for us. I think I will try the poke also if the situation arises like to get him to stop alerting to something. So far the ssssssssssssssst is magical.
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Post by kaos on Sept 20, 2006 15:44:45 GMT -5
but no, correcting a nervous dog does not mean the dog will attack, even less if its the owner doing it, the dog trusts the owner, if it is a stranger maybe that would happen Hi Dog, I agree that everybody should feel free to openly give advice and state preferences otherwise we can't be free to learn or form opinions. It is unhealthy if anybody feels that they have to censor their ideas. However, in this instance I don't agree with your thinking. I was not suggesting that the dog in question would bite if 'corrected', but simply that shutting down the reaction is not always a good idea - ie supressing the symptom rather than addressing the underlying cause. If all you want to achieve is stopping the dog from moving around in the car or making a noise then possibly 'correcting' the dog would work, although you would still leave yourself open to the dog developing a new way to exhibit the fear. Personally I would rather work on the fear causing the reaction and as Am correctly stated, you can't cure fear with a correction. Yes, it is good to be a calm confident leader for your dog in a fear situation, but I don't believe using a punishment is logical or helpful. If you have 'dealt' with the fear or stress before starting this process I can't see why you would still need to correct the dog?
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Post by espencer85 on Sept 20, 2006 16:38:53 GMT -5
As Cesar Millan says:
"The Difference Between Punishing and Correcting Your Dog:
The family that owned Matilda the Skateboard-Obsessed Dog reminded me of so many of my clients. They felt that by correcting her, they were punishing her and didn’t want to “hurt the dog’s feelings.” This led to Matilda’s unwanted, obsessive behavior.
In my mind, there is a huge difference between correcting and punishing a dog. To me, punishing often comes from frustration and anger. In other words, there is emotion behind a punishment. Correcting the dog is just reminding him that he broke the rules, boundaries, or limitations and setting him back on the right track. It’s done simply, instantly, and without emotion.
Dogs don’t punish each other. When one dog does something out of line, the others don’t get emotional about it, they simply correct each other or they snap each other out of the offending state-of-mind. Again, it’s the natural consequence of a follower that’s not respecting the rules, boundaries, or limitations."
The correction will not be to make the dog "forget" about his fear for a moment, the correction will be to REDIRECT his attention to something else, thats a big difference, that would be like saying "ignore it, dont think about that"
Dealing with the fear before getting in the car does not mean the dog wont be scared again once inside, you just will making him be less fearfull and you can deal with a less intense behavior
All the psiquiatric help you can get to cure you the fear of a dog attack will be usless UNTILL you are actually in front of a dog
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Post by kaos on Sept 20, 2006 17:17:33 GMT -5
A leash correction is a punishment, in operant conditioning terms it is a positive punishment. It goes without saying that no punishment should be administered to a dog in anger or without reason - that would be abuse.
I don't believe a leash correction would make a dog forget about fear, it may make the dog shut down the reaction to the fear. Not so much 'ignore it, don't think about it' as 'shut up and be still or I'll do that again'.
No I also don't think you can cure the dogs fear outside of the car, my point was simply that if you had cured the fear the dog would no longer display the unwanted behaviour of vocalising and moving around. My preferred option would be to work on desensitising the dog to the car travel through classical conditioning, and would not involve any compulsion or punishment.
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Post by espencer85 on Sept 20, 2006 19:03:57 GMT -5
Correction: something that is substituted or proposed for what is wrong or inaccurate; emendation. Punishment: severe handling or treatment. I dont think there is something as "positive punishment" , the neck of a dog is very strong, a leash correction is just like if you were wearing a leash in one of your legs, i'm sure that if i pull the leash fast and release quick i am not gonna hurt your leg but for sure i'm gonna get your attention, a leash correction DOES NOT hurt a dog at all, just like i'm not gonna hurt your leg if i do it to you I'm not familiar with classical conditioning so i will like you to teach me more about that how would you apply that to this case?
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Post by kaos on Sept 20, 2006 21:22:01 GMT -5
In order to be classified as positive punishment in operant conditioning terms it need only be the addition of something the dog finds unpleasant. It doesn't have to hurt in order to qualify as positive punishment, for example saying 'no' in a firm voice would be considered a positive punishment in most cases.
Negative punishment means (roughly) taking away something that the dog likes eg withdrawing your attention.
At the other end of the scale there is positive reinforcement, giving the dog something he finds pleasant and negative reinforcement, ending something the dog finds unpleasant.
Most dog training uses operant conditioning - ie we provide a consequence for the dogs actions either by introducing or removing a stimulus.
I believe your suggestion would utilise operant conditioning thus - dog barks whilst travelling, handler introduces a distracting leash jerk as a positive punishment and therefore dog learns to avoid barking whilst travelling in the car.
I do think this is a possible solution for getting rid of the barking, but it is unlikely to get rid of the fear.
Another option would be to utilise classical conditioning principles. This is the old 'Pavlovs dog' scenario where the dog learnt to salivate on hearing the bell rung before being given food - ie pairing two stimuli to condition a certain response. I have used this method extremely effectively with one of my own dogs to overcome his fear of the hairdryer. I paired the hairdryer with food. For several days I presented his breakfast only when the hairdryer was on in the same room (initially from a distance). When he finished eating I stopped the hairdryer. Now instead of running and cringing when he hears the hairdryer (as he had for 3 years before I decided to do something about it) he now looks very happy and wags his tail when he hears the hair dryer. He has learnt to associate the presence of the hairdryer with something nice (food) and his emotional response to the hair dryer is no longer fearful. I no longer feed a meal in the presence of the hair dryer, but he now opts to come and sit next to me while I dry my hair, and I give him attention and an occasional treat. I am sure you can see how this could be adapted to make initially the stationary car, then a moving car a place the dog loves to be. I would initially use food during regular short sessions to overcome the fear, but eventually the nice walk at the end of the car ride would probably be enough to maintain the positive association. This wouldn't be a quick or particularly convenient solution, but I do believe long term it would be extremely effective.
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Post by espencer85 on Sept 20, 2006 22:02:20 GMT -5
"Treats and Toys as Training Rewards:
There is a school of dog behavior that suggests that treats as positive reinforcement should be used to entice our animals to do what we want them to do. However, in my opinion, while that type of training may work best with “happy, go-lucky”-type dogs, there are definitely instances of hard-to-handle, aggressive, or anxious-obsessive dogs that would benefit more from a firm pack leader than a treat.
With some dogs, treats and toy rewards condition them to rely on the reward and not on the pack leader. When a dog is imbalanced, the practice of allowing treats for behavior often teaches that dog how to manipulate the situation – and you. He’ll learn what to do for the initial reward, but after that he’ll go right back to the bad behavior. Don’t get me wrong, I believe in rewarding dogs, but only once they’ve learned to follow standard rules, boundaries, and limitations though my pack leadership."
Like you say, maybe the dog will stop barking but still be fearfull BUT ONLY if he sees the "owner" more as a roomate than a pack leader IF the dog sees the owner as a pack leader then the dog wont have to be fearful about anything, why? because the pack leader is there to protect the pack against any danger, the pack leader is the first one to step up, pack leaders dont give food to the followers when they want them to do something
"Chow Time! Create Balance Before Feeding Your Dog
You know the saying “There’s no such thing as a free lunch?” Well, think about that the next time you are getting ready to feed your dog. To put it another way, your dog has a natural instinct to work for food. All animals work for food and water. All of them. And we need to learn that we are feeding the animal—not the name, not the breed, not the species—the animal. This is how they stay in tune to nature because they use nature as a source of survival. So when somebody properly challenges a dog by creating hunger and thirst before feeding, this allows the dog to be in-tune with itself.
At the Dog Psychology Center, I always challenge my dogs physically and psychologically before the feeding ritual. I fulfill the physical part by exhausting them from a walk, or rollerblading. Then the psychological challenge: I make them wait. The dog that is the most calm-submissive of the pack gets to eat first. Can you imagine what kind of a motivator that is for the other dogs to be calm-submissive? There is no barking or rushing or jumping allowed; and no one is permitted to growl at anyone else. Mealtime is then an incredibly satisfying experience for them, because they’ve earned it – and they know it!"
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