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Post by Am on Sept 20, 2006 22:20:12 GMT -5
"Treats and Toys as Training Rewards: There is a school of dog behavior that suggests that treats as positive reinforcement should be used to entice our animals to do what we want them to do. However, in my opinion, while that type of training may work best with “happy, go-lucky”-type dogs, there are definitely instances of hard-to-handle, aggressive, or anxious-obsessive dogs that would benefit more from a firm pack leader than a treat. But these things aren't mutually exclusive. I mean, you could give the hard-to-handle dog a strong pack leader and a reward for good behaviour, right? In fact, that would (in my experience) probably work better than doing either thing alone. Plus, I'm pretty sure that Kaos believes in being a strong pack leader as well as in giving out rewards. She just doesn't think that dishing out physical punishment is necessary to be a strong leader (sorry if I got you wrong, Kaos, but that was the impression I got from the other chat we had).
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Post by willow on Sept 20, 2006 22:35:44 GMT -5
I don't believe a leash correction would make a dog forget about fear, it may make the dog shut down the reaction to the fear. Not so much 'ignore it, don't think about it' as 'shut up and be still or I'll do that again'. I think there is a miscommunication of terms here, ;D and I don't think leash "correction" is the correct term to use in the above incidence, because the leash used in the manner espencer85 indicates would not be a "correction". It would be used as a " distraction" to break the dogs concentration/focus on his fear and get him to focus on you. Give him something else to think about, in other words. Contrary to what purely postitive/clicker people believe, not every "jerk" (their term) on the leash is a correction or hurts the dog. In fact a good trainer who uses training collars and leashes to train most dogs never "jerk" hard enough to cause the dog discomfort. It is only to get their attention and their focus back onto you, where it needs to be if they are to learn.
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Post by kaos on Sept 20, 2006 22:44:46 GMT -5
Dog, I am assuming you are quoting someone else there, but to me it shows a very flawed understanding of reward based training principles.
Yes, I agree that a treat or game, just as a punishment can be applied inappropriately, but that is very different from stating that positive reinforcement based training won't work. Any training method can be misunderstood and carried out ineffectually.
Reward based training is defnitely not incompatable with setting boundaries and having clear leadership. Giving treats randomly is not training, and rewarding is not the same as enticing.
Interestingly agressive, independent or anxious type dogs often respond incredibly well to reward based training where other methods have failed.
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Post by kaos on Sept 20, 2006 22:47:32 GMT -5
Sorry Am, just saw your post, yes you have definitely understood my viewpoint.
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Post by kaos on Sept 20, 2006 22:55:54 GMT -5
Willow, fair point, but my answer is still the same. A distraction may work to interrupt the behaviour that is happening at that time, but won't address the underlying cause.
To me a distraction technique would make more sense if the dog was barking at passing cats for example rather than out of stress at travelling in a car (which I have assumed in this post), although still probably wouldn't be my own preference.
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Post by espencer85 on Sept 20, 2006 23:22:59 GMT -5
But these things aren't mutually exclusive. I mean, you could give the hard-to-handle dog a strong pack leader and a reward for good behaviour, right? In fact, that would (in my experience) probably work better than doing either thing alone. Yeah, maybe you didnt read the part that says " don’t get me wrong, I believe in rewarding dogs, but only once they’ve learned to follow standard rules, boundaries, and limitations though my pack leadership." Kaos: maybe your dog was not afraid of the hair dryer, thats why it was easier for him to get over it, maybe he was just upset aboutthe noise, to be able to cure a fear you have to face the fear, if a dog has fear it does not matter if you put a 20oz ribe eye steak in front of him, the last thing he will be thinking about is food Is like if you are hanging from a cliff and i tell you "hey, here it's a hamburger, feel better", the last thing you would be thinking about is eating, you have to do climbing excercises quite often so you are not afraid of heigths anymore
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Post by kaos on Sept 20, 2006 23:37:22 GMT -5
Lol, yes we read it 'Don’t get me wrong, I believe in rewarding dogs, but only once they’ve learned to follow standard rules, boundaries, and limitations though my pack leadership." Like you say, maybe the dog will stop barking but still be fearfull BUT ONLY if he sees the "owner" more as a roomate than a pack leader IF the dog sees the owner as a pack leader then the dog wont have to be fearful about anything, why? because the pack leader is there to protect the pack against any danger, the pack leader is the first one to step up, pack leaders dont give food to the followers when they want them to do something' Re the first point, this is where we differ as I would use rewards in the process of establishing boundaries and rules, and the training process itself helps create the desired relationship with my dogs. Re the second point, I agree strong leadership is important, and acting confident etc will get you so far, but won't prevent some dogs experiencing fear in certain situations. When confident leadership is not enough, strong arm tactics definitely run the risk of making the situation worse and increasing the fear. If humans only required strong leadership in order to overcome fear in any situation no soldier would ever have a breakdown, refuse to fight, shoot themselves in the foot in order to get sent home etc and yet these type of cases are well documented in just about every army throughout history.
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Post by willow on Sept 20, 2006 23:41:42 GMT -5
For the life of me I don't know what all the fuss is about and why every thing has to be such a big deal. I think, since Ana was fine in the car until recently, it is because she got thrown around so much. If she is crated so this doesn't happen, she will be fine, and if the drivers would have used a little compassion/common sense to begin with so she could keep her feet under her, this would have been prevented to begin with.
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Post by kaos on Sept 20, 2006 23:46:24 GMT -5
'Kaos: maybe your dog was not afraid of the hair dryer, thats why it was easier for him to get over it, maybe he was just upset aboutthe noise, to be able to cure a fear you have to face the fear, if a dog has fear it does not matter if you put a 20oz ribe eye steak in front of him, the last thing he will be thinking about is food'
I can assure you he was very fearful of the hairdryer. Food initially had to be placed far away from the object of his fear, but subconsciously he learnt to pair the sound of the hairdryer with something pleasant, and his reaction has completely changed. You have to start at a point where the dog can cope, as their confidence grows they are able to cope slightly nearer etc.
The cliff example won't work for two reasons: 1) you are not starting the conditioning at a point where the fear is manageable for the person, and 2) the hamburger is unlikely to be considered to be rewarding enough.
Think instead of teaching a small child to enjoy rock climbing, and starting to pair climbing with something that has intrinsic value to that child at the base of the rock before they even start the climb and you might be closer to a realistic anaolgy.
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Post by kaos on Sept 20, 2006 23:47:44 GMT -5
For the life of me I don't know what all the fuss is about and why every thing has to be such a big deal. I think, since Ana was fine in the car until recently, it is because she got thrown around so much. If she is crated so this doesn't happen, she will be fine, and if the drivers would have used a little compassion/common sense to begin with so she could keep her feet under her, this would have been prevented to begin with. Willow, suspect you are right in this case. Crating and considerate driving may well be sufficient if the fear is not too severe.
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Post by willow on Sept 20, 2006 23:48:01 GMT -5
If humans only required strong leadership in order to overcome fear in any situation no soldier would ever have a breakdown, refuse to fight, shoot themselves in the foot in order to get sent home etc and yet these type of cases are well documented in just about every army throughout history. Do I detect "human psychology" being applied here? We are not talking about humans. We are talking about dogs who do not think or react like humans, therefore the soldier scenerio does not apply.
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Post by willow on Sept 20, 2006 23:50:13 GMT -5
Willow, fair point, but my answer is still the same. A distraction may work to interrupt the behaviour that is happening at that time, but won't address the underlying cause. Hence my post on the "underlying cause" and the solution. ;D
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Post by sibemom on Sept 21, 2006 7:01:57 GMT -5
You guys were really busy while I was sleeping Ok here is my 2 cents ;D What would the underlying fear of certain situations be for a dog Anyone willing to raise their hand ;D THEY ARE DOGS SIMPLE. There is no other answer that would be the correct one because WE ARE NOT DOGS ;D Why would all of a sudden a dog who was fine in a car then one day show apprehension or fear Because their dogs and they can, so that point being made IGNORE THEM, CRATE THEM OR SECURE THEM and go on about your biz ;D It is always interesting converstaion to talk about the UNDERLYING FEARS a dog has but unless we SPEAK DOG or can get them on a couch to do a psycho analisis Guess what We still are never going to know WHY, so I don't stress about the why I just get them to do THE NOW The more a dog understands that what you dictate it to do and that you are not going to back off from the request the more the dog will not only respect you, but undestand that if there is some weird fear going on they can FO GET ABOUT IT because the ultimate ending is going to be them doing as their owner requests. If they could talk and tell us why a car ride terrifies them or why the hair dryer seems evil, what would they say I HATE YOUR DRIVING YOU TAILGATE, YOU DRIVE TO FAST, YOU TAKE CORNERS TO SHARP, THE SOUND HURTS MY EARS, IT'S TO HOT! that would be like having a 4 legged furry back seat driver and I DO NOT LIKE BACK SEAT DRIVERS, just ask my hubby Everything that " dOG" quoted was very well written, and everything that Willow responded was equaly as versed. The simple fact and I am not cranky believe me just very passionate on this subject. WE MAKE TO MUCH OUT OF EVERY SINGLE RESPNSE OUR DOGS HAVE. We sit and try and find MEANINGS to their actions and again I will go back to the first thing I said "THEY ARE DOGS AND DO THINGS THAT ONLY DOGS UNDERSTAND" that is why I enjoy and respect Cesar Millan, because he does not try and figure out the WHY he just moves forward and shows the dog that the owner will decide what and how things are going to be done, and no fear shall enter the picture with that process. Owning a dog should be simple, it always was when I was growing up. In fact we did not really do much training at all, I grew up on a farm. Our dogs naturally followed us, pleased us and respected us, and you are talking about a pack at least as big as the one Cesar has today. There was no FEAR, there were NO HEAD CASES and NO AGGRESION ISSUES. I think instead of anilyzing why dogs do what they do we should maybe take this a step backwards and figure out how WE HUMANS screwed up a natural process of "A BOY AND HIS DOG" to the point it is now where people like Cesar Millan have to re educate Humans on how to deal with the most common pet in the world A DOG. When I first got internet access I went through all the emotions of DOUBTING MYSELF as to how I deal with dogs. I thought to myself OH MY GOD, I have been doing wrong all these years who would thought. I read about new foods, new tecniques, breed aggresion, in fact it screwed me up so bad I was doubting myself constantly. I met Willow through and internet forum after I got my Sibe puppy, and even though I had YEARS of experience all this new talk of aggresion in puppies, bad breeding, bad food, BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH, got me so confused I was actually starting to be afraid of my OWN PUPPY because he was very different than any of the pups I had before and I allowed these NEW THINKERS to screw me up for fear of ruining my pup.THAT WAS INSANE because when Willow finally slapped me back to reality and got my way of thinking back on track HE WAS EASY. I mean I worked with GSD's before, dealt with more RED ZONE DOGS then I care to mention and then once I get the internet everything I learned was being questioned because I am a person who likes to do things RIGHT So I went back to a very simple way of thinking where dogs are concerned and that is "THEY ARE DOGS DO NOT TRY AND FIGURE OUT WHY THEY DO THINGS. FIX WHAT YOU DO NOT LIKE ABOUT THEIR BEHAVIOR AND MOVE ON" That is the way it would work in the wild the Alpha would correct and move forward he would not get out the anilyst couch and ask "SO HOW ARE YOU FEELING TODAY?" he would show the subordiantes that HE WILL PROTECT THEM AND NO DO NOT STEP OUT OF LINE and then the pack moves forward, no past repressed memories or haunting traumas, they live in the now under a very strong, fair and gentle leader. That is the only reference that I make to dogs being like children and that is Strong parenting skills will provide you with balanced children, and strong Pack Leader Skills will provide you with a balanced dog. It is so FREEKING SIMPLE why do we humans always make MOUTAINS OUT OF MOLE HILSS. I bet dogs laugh at us all the time
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Post by willow on Sept 21, 2006 8:29:49 GMT -5
I will take this to the debate section, since we strayed from the beginning issue again and got into dog analysis 101. ;D
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Post by sibemom on Sept 21, 2006 8:35:50 GMT -5
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