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Post by Richard on Jun 30, 2004 10:10:19 GMT -5
Every canine, even the best trained, is capable of biting! Of course....that is why none of us here would ever leave our dogs with kids by themselves....my dog is well trained but I still keep an eye on him around my daughter and her friends. And because of the strong pack mentality we have here, the training and the balanced corrections he's been given, he knows that even thinking about trying to push my daughter around(or her friend) will result in me giving him another correction...If I've made the first one memorable in his mind...he doesn't want to go down that path again and will mind his manners. But he's a GSD and needs to be watched...that is my responsibility as a handler....He knows what he can and can't get away with as it's been taught to him to know the difference by the use of balanced corrections. -Richard
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Post by Willow on Jun 30, 2004 10:56:22 GMT -5
From what I can tell....the clicker teaches the dog to avoid. They get rewarded for avoiding. That's not the way clicker training is supposed to work. The click is supposed to be a "positive" response to the dog doing the right behavior and "mark" a good behavior the way saying, "good dog" would do. The treat is a "reward" for that good behavior. The theory behind the clicker is that animals understand/respond more readily to the click than to the Positive verbal Praise. In my dogs case, however, it has worked just the opposite. The click to her is a "negative" response, like telling her "no" or "leave it". She wanted the treat that immediately followed the click, but in her mind the click meant...."don't you dare take the treat until I tell you it's o.k." I'm thinking that I probably shouldn't have just clicked/treated or "loaded" her. She didn't know the click was a "positive reinforcement", because she wasn't asked to do something first, therefore, as I said, her mind told her that taking the treat after the click was a "bad" thing, and she did look thoroughly confused!!! I haven't decided yet if I will: *Not use the clicker *Start over or *use the clicker as a "mark" for wrong behavior as long as that is already what she thinks it is. My thinking is that if she starts to growl/bark inappropriatly and I click the clicker, she will stop! But then I don't know if I should treat too, because will she think she is being "rewarded" for stopping at the click or being rewarded for barking!!! I'm as confused as she is!
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Post by sibemom on Jun 30, 2004 15:07:57 GMT -5
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Post by amyjo on Jun 30, 2004 15:32:55 GMT -5
Yeah... I can why! It's making mine hurt too! I think it is gaining in popularity because most people (me included) would prefer not to have to physically correct a dog - I mean lets face it...it ain't fun and it isn't why I have a dog...but like most things that sound too good to be true (like losing weight while you sleep) it really only works for a small small percentage and if it doesn't work for you then you are led to believe you are "doing it wrong" or there is something wrong with your dog. I also think that SOME PP trainers do it because it takes a looooooong time to get reliable results and that means more $$$$$$$. I mean why else spend months or years working on something that can be accomplished in one or two sessions using another method?
In my agility class there were two aussies that were two years old - they had been working with a PP trainer since puppyhood and were STILL bolting off the agility field and ignoring "lets go" and "come" commands from the owner! I woulda fired that chickie a long time ago ya know?
My two cents for what it's worth ;D
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Post by Willow on Jun 30, 2004 17:50:29 GMT -5
but the question I have is how does a dog rationalize avoidence if you never show them what behavior to aviod without correcting? So if I ignore behavior and then treat when they comply on their own the dog is suppose to figure that out? I don't see it, because how do they know what behavior you do not want them to do They can't possibly, but I'll give them credit for one thing. They are a whole lot smarter than the assinine people (I won't even call them trainer's) who came up with the idiotic clicker idea! Just my .02 cents worth too! ;D
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Post by boxerlover on Jun 30, 2004 20:48:13 GMT -5
OH MY GOSH!!! You guys are crack me up! I have never used a clicker and I dont even know what PP stands for! Mostly what I got out of it was that dog learn to avoid, (like avoid the garbage can), hear a click, get a treat? I dunno gang? With all the childrens noisy maker toys around this house...I dont think wither of my dogs would even hear or care less about a clicking noise! K9Rocky....It would be impossible for me to watch over my dogs and my kids every second of everyday! I do use a crate when I need to....but realistically speaking....100% supervision is not a reality.
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Post by amyjo on Jun 30, 2004 20:52:00 GMT -5
PP = Purely Positive
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Post by boxerlover on Jul 1, 2004 8:50:36 GMT -5
Purely Positive does not sound realistic! How can you be positive towards your dog when he snaps at your child? There is no positive way to correct that canine behavior! I 100% wanted my dog to know I was pissed at his behavior!
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Post by Willow on Jul 1, 2004 9:20:40 GMT -5
Oh, but that is sooooooo wrong to PP trainer's! You were supposed to "ignore" him when he growled at your child, and when he stopped growling, give a click and a treat to show him that NOT GROWLING was the response to your child that you wanted. We'll get you educated yet, boxerlover!
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Post by Iluvmypup on Jul 1, 2004 9:37:20 GMT -5
Since you guys don't a care a thing about what my opinion is, I won't say it. But Willow, that is SOO incorrect what you just said. No clicker trainer would do that, and I hope you can stop bashing clicker trainers. I don't bash your training techniques, whatever they may be.
Clicker training is fun, fast, and easy. My dog was housetrained within 4 days, and he learned his sit-stays, down-stays, and stand-stays with mild distractions within a month. Don't tell people what a 'clicker trainer would do' if none of those facts are true.
I'm sorry if I'm coming across angry, but if there is a positive solution to this, then I say GO FOR IT! Training is supposed to be fun! With the clicker it is. No frustrated owners or dogs.
I say try a positive way of training your dog first. Why jump straight to using harsh corrections?
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Post by Willow on Jul 1, 2004 10:02:18 GMT -5
I was not referring to your method of training, Luv. First of all, PP trainer's use clickers/treats too, but as was determined in another thread, you are not a PP trainer, because you sometimes use corrections. PP and die hard clicker trainer's never use corrections.
And, who isn't listening? Didn't we ALL say that we use positive training when it will work on that particular dog?
You DID bash our methods, even before you heard how we train, and you actually mislead us into believing you never give corrections. What do you expect my reaction to be? When a person is less than honest, they lose credibility with me as well as my respect.
I apologize to everyone on this board for the remarks I made about clickers and clicker trainer's in general. I overstepped the bounds of RB ediquette (sp). That is not what we are about.
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Post by amyjo on Jul 1, 2004 10:26:03 GMT -5
Loey - I am beginning to feel a bit like a dog growling over a bone myself! ;D
Anyway - I realize it is splitting hairs but I believe a PP trainer would distract the dog from growling at the child by calling it or using a look at me command and then click and treat.....
Still not effective in my book... I believe that any dog caught growling should be corrected - but I also believe his life should be structured up to that point so that he wouldn't even consider doing it... win alot of small battles and you avoid the big ones - thats my motto!
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Post by Willow on Jul 1, 2004 12:02:23 GMT -5
"Etiquette". ;D
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Post by boxerlover on Jul 1, 2004 12:19:20 GMT -5
That is what I meant about avoid...I do this very similar when my kids start pulling at my dogs ears. I call him towards me....then I praise him for coming to me. I also have Alpha rolled him for snapping over food....so how is that for balance that was discussed earlier? I think the 'punishment' must fit the 'crime'... Same goes for the reverse...the 'rewards' and 'praise' will accompany the 'good' behavior.
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Post by Nicole on Jul 1, 2004 12:22:15 GMT -5
I'm sorry if I'm coming across angry, but if there is a positive solution to this, then I say GO FOR IT! Training is supposed to be fun! With the clicker it is. No frustrated owners or dogs. Training should be fun..I guess..but not a life long endeavor. Training is so that the human and dog can live in harmony and the dog can enjoy himself peaceably as a well behaved member of the pack and to go places, be around people and dogs and have fun. Fun is the result of a well trained dog. Fun for the dog. I don't see how correcting a dog for growling is frustrating for anyone. As long as you are the established leader it is over in about 2 seconds and if done properly likely never to surface again. Reign growled at me over a bone when he was a teen. He wished he hadn't. Was he corrected. YES. I didn't have a leash on him so I scolded him fiercely. He never growled at or disrespected me like that again. We then played give and take the bone for days (I gave it to him, he gave it back etc.) so he knew I was a food giver, not a food stealer. Gee that's harsh isn't it. So where is the frustration.
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