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Post by Richard on Jun 26, 2004 14:11:52 GMT -5
Iluvmypup,
Look don't take things the wrong way either but you need to read some of these posts (here and other threads) and understand the people posting here are some of the most talented dog handlers/trainers I've had the pleasure to meet....they're open to new ideas but at the same time, need to be respected for what they know works.
I have learned tons of stuff from these people, shared stories (both the good and bad) and if I lived near any of them, I'd never think twice about leaving my GSD with any of them!
We all love our dogs more than words can ever adequately describe here.....I've never given my dog a scruff shake....between our training and the equipment we use, it's never been an issue (I just take a lot of options of the table....growling and pi$$y behaviour - not tolerated at all anytime). I also take my dogs behaviour, not only in the home but outside as well, very seriouisly (as you've seen so do the people who posted in this thread) and the techniques we use for training have been proven to work and our dogs still love us for it.
Hey, don't stop posting your thoughts....my goodness, there is no one person here who knows it all, but I guarentee you, there are people here who understand, more than most, about dog/human relationships and the training that is required to get the best out of both. It is indeed a very balanced group of individuals who are supportive of each other and are willing to pass on their knowledge to others.
I feel fortunate to be able to have access to such a wealth of dog training information as what I find here with the members of ths board...I never stop training and I never stop learning.
-Richard
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Post by Willow on Jun 26, 2004 14:53:49 GMT -5
I have dealt with problem dogs, and yes, I've always used clickers and treats. I never, ever had to use a harsh method of collar jerking, scruff grabbing, nose shaking...whatever. I don't make myself a big, overpowering person to my dog. Richard is right, Luv. We are all pretty open minded here and very willing to "discuss" training options, but it seems that whenever a clicker/cookie "trainer" starts to "discuss", they immediately use words like you used above, like "harsh", "collar Jerking" etc., which tends to put us on the defensive, and then when we object, they pack up and leave! Reminds me of a "fear biter" who darts in and bites when your back is turned, and then runs and hides when you turn to face them. Discuss all you want. We will listen and discuss with you, but please leave your "harsh" words for our training methods at the door when you come in. When people start off as you did, using those kinds of words, it shows us you are very narrow minded and you are not willing to listen to us, but want to show us where we are wrong and cruel.
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Post by boxerlover on Jun 26, 2004 19:49:09 GMT -5
WOW! I have really enjoyed reading everyones perspectives. I am not a dog trainer or anything... Jack is my first dog that I have owned in my adult life. I adopted him he was already 1 years old and I made a commitment to him and his baggage! Within the first 2 months I had him...he was taking food from my children and snapping at them over it... I took what some might call extreme action... I set it up with my 8 year old son...I set a trap...I left food on the table and pretended to turn my back... as soon as Jack went for the food, I had my son tell Jack 'No' and pull his collar, Jack went to snap at my son...I was there ready to pounce my dog! I took him down to the ground by the neck. I scolded him harshly! I do not see anything I would do differently if I had to do it over! To date....Jack no longer takes food off counters or from my children...Jack has not bit my children...Jack does growl when the toddlers pull his ears...(rightfully so)
I do not know if what I did would be considered abusive or not.....but I would do it again if I have to!
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Post by Iluvmypup on Jun 29, 2004 9:49:22 GMT -5
Boxerlover, just an input here. If you ever use that jerking method again, PLEASE for the safety of your son, at least use a leash when having him jerk the dog back. That can be dangerous to use your hands to jerk a dog back. I'm not saying this to come down on you AT ALL, but just as a safety precaution. Oh, and thanks for adopting a shelter dog! Is that him in your avatar? I love boxers...they're my second favorite dog next to a lab. Sorry if I sounded out of line in any of my post...I don't see anything wrong I posted though. When I say its a harsh, corrective method you guys are using, isn't that correct? What else do you call it? Just as clicker training, or other types of training like that is called positive, any other type of using, say, a choke collar would be considered negative training. If it works for you, I'm really happy for you and your dog that it worked so great. I've met some really nice dogs that were trained using negative reinforcement, even though I would never use it myself. Sorry again if I sounded like I was coming down hard. I feel strongly about training techniques sometimes and need to learn to control myself.
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Post by amyjo on Jun 29, 2004 10:04:06 GMT -5
No...it isn't "negative" training. It is "balanced" training. That's what we call it. In general - "negative" brings to mind something bad or wrong so the term itself is basically loaded.
In real training terms (operant conditioning terms) - negative reinforcment means...taking away an unpleasant stimulus when a specific behavior is preformed so as to reinforce that behavior. ie: Dog wearing an e-collar steps into the street - receives e-stim that isn't removed until all 4 paws are back onto the sidewalk.
Negative punishment means taking away a pleasant stimulus in order to punish unwanted behavior. PP trainers use negative punishment all the time: ie: dog is misbehaving on the agility course - he is removed from the ring and kenneled.
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Post by amyjo on Jun 29, 2004 10:45:49 GMT -5
Mostly what we are talking about when we discuss correction though is a "positive punishment". That means we are applying an unpleasant stimulus when the dog performs an unwanted behavior. It differs from negative reiforcement in that the stimulus is not removed when the dog complies but is rather a consequence of the unwanted behavior.
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Post by boxerlover on Jun 29, 2004 12:38:28 GMT -5
The Boxer pup in my avatar is 'Rocky'...he is the best tempered dog anyone could ever pray for! My devil dog is 'Jack' a mixed breed of some crazy kind. I hope no-one will ever misunderstand how much I love this dog! I have had him 2 years now....he just gets confused from time to time where his place is in the family pack! Here is his picture...(he is cute aint he?) hehe
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Post by Richard on Jun 29, 2004 13:13:36 GMT -5
No...it isn't "negative" training. It is "balanced" training. That's what we call it. In general - "negative" brings to mind something bad or wrong so the term itself is basically loaded. In real training terms (operant conditioning terms) - negative reinforcment means...taking away an unpleasant stimulus when a specific behavior is preformed so as to reinforce that behavior. ie: Dog wearing an e-collar steps into the street - receives e-stim that isn't removed until all 4 paws are back onto the sidewalk. Negative punishment means taking away a pleasant stimulus in order to punish unwanted behavior. PP trainers use negative punishment all the time: ie: dog is misbehaving on the agility course - he is removed from the ring and kenneled. amyjo is right...it is balanced training....I'm correcting on the spot (or using bridging if I'm a distance away) to correct my dog...it isn't negative, harsh, cruel or abusive - it's getting the dog to understand that if he does something that is wrong, it shouldn't be done again. How the heck do you ignore bad behaviour? I can't do it with my daughter so I'm not gonna do it my my dog. PP works great on the "soft breeds".....Goldens, Labs ect., those dogs who aren't into thinking too much about who is in charge or working up the pack ladder in the family...they are just laid back and really, don't offer much of a fight in any type of training scenario...those are PP dogs....using PP training on a GSD, Rottie or any of the other types of "head strong" breeds (you can include the JRT in this one)? That is not happening in my books....it just wouldn't work cuz you have a dog that thinks and wants to test you as an owner...that is where you use what we consider the balanced type training...you'll get corrected when you get caught doing something wrong but also be praised when doing something right....it sends a more clear message to the dog as far as I'm concerned. In the end, you use what you think is best and I will too...if I may though, lets just say your way of training is easy since you choose breeds that don't offer a lot of resistance to the trainer and just basically say to you, "sure, whatever"..tell me honestly, would that not be considered the easy way out? -Richard
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Post by boxerlover on Jun 29, 2004 14:15:11 GMT -5
Just an observation....as I read the replies...there are too many defenses up here. I can find bits of information in all the replies. I think there are valid pionts to be taken from both perspectives. Like they say about 'opinions'..."everybody has one" Nothing can be gained by arguing.
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Post by Richard on Jun 29, 2004 15:22:02 GMT -5
Indeed you are correct...there is different opinions for everything from everyone.
Thus it is up to the dog owner/handler to decide what type of training method to use. This decision must be based on the type of dog, it's personality and most definitely the personality of the owner/handler.
Where I consider the methods I use to be the best in obtaining my goals and ending up with a well trained and happy dog, there are others who would lable me mean, nasty, harsh controlling and cruel....that is even before they saw my dog and what he can do.
Is that a fair statement...I think so. Sometimes people come here to post just to stir the pot. They have no urge to learn about any other method or even simply acknowledge that there could be another way to train a dog. There is having an opinion then there is being closed minded too and that is where the stalemates start.
Yes, there is nothing to be gained by arguments but at the same time, nothing is gained by slagging one training method as harsh because one individual or a group of trainers "deems" it so.
-Richard
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Post by boxerlover on Jun 29, 2004 15:22:03 GMT -5
Well....actually I think everyone agrees more than meets the eye...I own 2 dogs and when it comes to training they are treated differently...they have 100% different temperments and personalities!
What is necessary for 1 dog would crumble the other!
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Post by amyjo on Jun 29, 2004 15:35:00 GMT -5
Actually boxerlover that is EXACTLY the point. If all you ever trained were dogs just like your "easy" dog and you made an assertion that those methods worked on all dogs and then you would be very wrong am I correct?
Sometimes I think what people who only use PP fail to see about those who used balanced training is that the corrections we employ are matched to the temperment of the dog. For some dogs all it takes is a raised eyebrow or a firm "no" for others it takes a collar corection or a scruffing. It is all about the individual. Trainers who used balanced training ( at least those around here) really and truly get that.
I don't think my methods are "harsh" or overpowering I think they are matched to each dog's temperment that I work with. Hey - I was just out with one of my doggie clients a rottie that I walk and train. We came across a deer - she is only wearing a regular buckle collar I wisper her name and turn in walk in the other direction and when she comes I give her a treat. That isn't so unlike clicker training....I don't disagree with most of clicker training(other than I personally don't like the clicker) but I agree with most principles - the thing is I add another layer called proofing using the right level of correction matched to the dog.
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Post by Nicole on Jun 29, 2004 16:41:57 GMT -5
Sometimes I think what people who only use PP fail to see about those who used balanced training is that the corrections we employ are matched to the temperment of the dog. For some dogs all it takes is a raised eyebrow or a firm "no" for others it takes a collar corection or a scruffing. It is all about the individual. Trainers who used balanced training ( at least those around here) really and truly get that. EXACTLY!! And I am going to go one step further. The levels of correction can also differ with one dog as to different behaviors. I have found this to be especially true with Petey. He is heavily driven in both prey and territoriality. A stern look is a motivational enough correction to get him to not shove his saliva soaked toy in my lap, yet he needs a much more motivational correction to not chase the birds or to not go ballistic at a dog walking by my house. I am very in tune with what is necessary to enforce each behavior. Teaching with me is all positive. New commands that is. I use a negative to stop bad behavior. A no, a stern look, a collar correction. I use praise, play and random treating to reinforce good and appropriate behavior. I enforce all learned commands and noncompliance with stopping bad behavior with whatever is necessary to ensure that compliance is reliable under all circumstances. Just to touch upon the garbage example for a minute. With the PP method, the dog never learns that it isn't ok to go in the garbage. He only learns that it is good to walk past it. So what do you do when he then goes in the garbage. He was never told he couldn't. I don't like for there to be any confusion as to what is and isn't allowed. I have had Petey for only a few months and he is 3 years old so not a puppy. We have come so far with this method. He didn't know any commands except for sit and he thought that meant down. Now he sits, downs, stays, comes all with distractions which we are still building on. He doesn't chew anything, go potty in the house or bug me at all. He greets people nicely and doesn't jump. He was not like this when I got him. He also now ignores dogs when we walk by. I am still working on greeting a dog because he runs to them at jet speed and scares the snot out of them but that's for a different thread. There is so much more. I am not trying to brag but I know that he is such a good boy because of this training method. And he is extremely happy, not fearful and loves me as much as I love him.
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Post by sibemom on Jun 30, 2004 5:03:17 GMT -5
Luv, As Richard said don't stop posting If anything keep giving your opinions, so that at least for myself I can figure out exactly how the heck that darn clicker gets results . It is obvious to me and please do not take my observation the wrong way, because it is just my opinion. You say you have worked with troubled dogs, OK. Well I don't think they were like the dogs that we own or have worked with in our lifetime. I don't know how long you have been training and I certainly do not have a certifcate hanging on my wall saying I am a pro, not that I need that, but experience sometimes is the best teacher. Everything I have learned over the years and everything I do now, is because I have carefully watched how each and every dog I work with reacts to diffrent methods. If there is no balance you are pretty likley to have a dog that will not hold up under trying circumstances. I can not put my trust into PP training, I am not saying it does not work to teach some commands BUT you better have a back up plan just in case. I think it was Amy that said if they never understand what is unacceptable behavior it becomes confusing to them. The one thing that makes training almost impossiable is to constantly confuse the dog. If I would have used PP training with the last couple dogs that I have owned, everytime I wanted to do something I would have had to ask the dog if it was ok, because they would have been running my household. Take the example of a dog growling at a child. If you are telling me to ignore that behavior and then treat them when it stops, that IMHO is wrong. Issues like that must be dealt with harshly, and quickly, because no dog that lives in my home with ever threaten my family or me for that matter. To ignore that is not letting the dog know that this is a behavior that must NEVER be seen and if it is, you will be dealt with and you are not going to like it. What if I am not in the same room as my dog and my child? Even though I give extreme supervision when they interact, I might have to leave the room for a moment, so what if this happens and then I am not there to treat the dog, will it continue? You bet and it might escalate into something worse. Having a strong foundation of consequenses for unwanted behavior lets me know that even when I am not home the dogs behave the way they were trained, and that makes me feel so much more secure. So please do not stop posting work harder at getting at least myself to understand how PP/clicker training works and can be trusted in any situation
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Post by boxerlover on Jun 30, 2004 8:42:14 GMT -5
From what I can tell....the clicker teaches the dog to avoid. They get rewarded for avoiding.
I have 4 children still at home and I am not convinced that would be good enough....but then again.... there is no guarantee in life that a dog will not bite.
Every canine, even the best trained, is capable of biting!
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