|
Post by Brooke on Jun 24, 2004 21:52:18 GMT -5
Yeah I kind of have to side with Amyjo on this one. There is a time and place for positive training or even clicker training for that matter with certain types of dogs if thats what you prefer, but those willing to challenge you...well lets just say rewarding the dog by not only keeping the bone but walking away I can't see effective or motivational. The same exact things were running through my head amyjo as I read as well. You'd basically be training the dog that by backing off...the dog wins... YOU may not think you need to fight for it but the dog obviously does or else it wouldn't be "warning" you. The bone in itself is the reward in this case. You walk away the dog is already rewarded by keeping the bone and it reinforces the behavior and in effect the dog learns it growls you give in. It's already got one thing it wants, i.e. the bone. The effectiveness part in training is the motivation part. This is the reason why so many dogs become aggressive or bad barkers towards the mailman or the paperboy. They come to the house... the dogs give warning and the mailman or paperboy leave the premesis and it continues. In their mind THEY have trained these people... or in this case, whom ever is backing off.
|
|
|
Post by boxerlover on Jun 25, 2004 8:40:41 GMT -5
Funny this topic has resurfaced after such a long while. Jack has been obeying the "drop" command very well now.........until yesterday...I offered my dogs their very first piece of raw chicken. I soon realized I needed to move them off the carpet. YUCK! Jack WOULD NOT drop his chicken...finally after I YELLED at him he did drop it. I am not kidding....I had to YELL "JACK, DROP IT" My throat still hurts!
|
|
|
Post by Iluvmypup on Jun 25, 2004 9:49:48 GMT -5
Actually, the training process doesn't require you to back off when the dog growls. It requires you to keep walking and ignore the dog. For example, say my dog were growling over his bone (which he doesn't, but say he did ), I would walk far enough away that he wasn't growling. In that way, I can reward him for NOT growling by dropping that yummy treat on the floor. Eventually you can walk closer to him, and drop treats next to him. A dog that growls when you walk near his bone doesn't like your presence there, and feels threatened, either because he's afriad you'll give him physical abuse (grabbing his scruff and shaking him) or you'll take away something thats really great to him (the bone in this case). You might be able to control your dog's growling/biting, but what if a 2 year old were to run up to your dog and grab the bone? Would you move quick enough to prevent him from biting? Since, in this case, you've made your dog stop the growling, but not the biting. My dog lets anyone come to him and grab his bone. I have a 2 year old cousin that I would hate to see growled at, or worse, bitten. I've trained him to give the bone wether someone says the word or not. Anyone can take his bone, and he's fine with that.
|
|
|
Post by amyjo on Jun 25, 2004 11:01:06 GMT -5
First... I doubt the dog makes the subtle distinction between backing off and continuing on. Thus in his mind he growled and the threat was removed period.
Second...around here we do not consider scruff shakes "abusive" we consider them effective, appropriate motivational corrections in certain circumtances.
Third... How in the world do you reward a dog for NOT doing something? - while he is laying there chewing his bone there are a thousand and one other things he is not doing.. how is he supposed to know he got the treat for not growling? Let's be honest - desensitization doesn't work that way. He is not making that connection - he is merely learning that people in the room = treat. While this might really be effective for a truly fearfull dog - it is not going to help the owner that has rank issues.
Fourth...We here are all pretty much about whatever works and I am glad these methods worked for you. Really I mean that. My guess is these dogs may have been soft and fearful rather than hard and dominant and bucking for rank... Many of the people on this board originally came together because of "issue" dogs that couldn't be helped with cookies and clickers so some of us see things a little differently than you do.
Fifth - for the record - I wouldn't use your cookie method nor would I use a more confrontational method using corrections. I prefer a more holistic approach that involes NILIF (hard core if necessary), pleanty of other OB training, learining the drop it command with less desirable items like balls etc.. and working up to the the big things like bones when I have already achieved a leadership role with my dog.
And to answer your question about the 2 year old. I am reasonably sure that none of my dogs would bite a child, but I would never ever ever ever under any circumstances put a dog, a two year old, and a bone in a room together. It just isn't necessary. Period.
But that's me.
|
|
|
Post by boxerlover on Jun 25, 2004 11:15:44 GMT -5
I own 2 dogs....1 has never challenged my authority and most likely never will, it simply is not in his nature. Jack on the other hand has challenged 'rank' on several occasions...I do not hesitate for one second to grab him and 'scruff' him! I do have 4 young children in the home...I am open to learn as much as possible. Yes there have been occasion where Jack growls at the children...not over 'rank' but because they are pulling his ears. What I do in this situation....I call him to 'come'...then I praise him. He has learned over time that when the children become 'pully' at him....he will come to me for protection....I am his leader. The children are also scolded. I guess my point is there are different types of 'growling' Am I way off base here?
|
|
|
Post by Iluvmypup on Jun 25, 2004 12:39:32 GMT -5
I have dealt with problem dogs, and yes, I've always used clickers and treats. I never, ever had to use a harsh method of collar jerking, scruff grabbing, nose shaking...whatever. I don't make myself a big, overpowering person to my dog. We're best friends, and thats it. He listens to me because of lots of hard work in training, and the fact that he knows I'll never hurt him..even if its the gentlest scruff shake. Just my two cents...I'm glad that your technique works for you. I guess we all have our own opinions.
|
|
|
Post by amyjo on Jun 25, 2004 13:19:33 GMT -5
Uggh here we go again - someday I will learn.
Yes...we all do have our own opinions. The difference is I am at least willing to discuss your way. If it really works I would be interested in the psychology behind it ...
You want to say I (and people that train like me) are "abusive", "harsh" and "big and overpowering" to our dogs. To hear you tell it my dogs are cowering and pissing in the corner waiting for my next command so they can please me or suffer the harsh consequences. I got news for you...they are happy healthy doggie dogs and they are my best friends too. I put time, training and fun into them as well - I don't just beat them into submission and then call it a day. Corrections are only a small part of a balanced training program. Let me repeat CORRECTIONS ARE ONLY A SMALL PART OF A BALANCED TRAINING PROGRAM. I use them to make sure that the negative consequence of non-compliance is a correction that I can control - not a head on with a car or a knock down drag out with another dog or worse.
I never characterized your methods in a negative way- I simply questioned whether they work and why. Too bad you couldn't return the favor.
Hey... I'm off to beat my dogs - I haven't done it since this morning so they are due for some harsh abuse - because you know - I need to feel big and over-powering!
Later.
|
|
|
Post by Willow on Jun 25, 2004 15:47:48 GMT -5
Yes, "here we go again". What have parents learned by being their children's best friend rather than by being a parent, teaching them right from wrong and setting clear cut guidelines for them? Where there are no consequences, (correction) for bad behavior, they end up with delinquent, out of control children who do not respect anyone, especially the parents who are not parents, but best friends. Believe it or not, you can be a parent and also be your childs best friend, and your child will respect you and want to please you. You can accomplish this in a kind, loving way, without beating your child , but you also must set rules with clearly defined consequences if the child breaks the rules. If you don't set rules, or boundries , how does the child know when they have gone outside of them? Dogs are like children. They need and actually want someone who is in charge to set boundaries for them and to teach them what is expected of them, except that because we cannot verbally reason with them, we have to show them physically when they do something wrong, as well as when they do something right. If all they ever get is a reward for good behavior and there are no consequences for bad behavior, how do they ever learn what bad behavior is? I'm sorry, but no one, human or animal, ever learns what acceptable behavior is by rewarding good behavior and ignoring bad behavior. Anyone who thinks this can be accomplished is not living in reality. Let me repeat: There has to be a balance between praise for good behavior and consequences (or correction) for bad behavior. When one or the other is lacking, we can clearly see the consequences in both children or animals, and that is one of the main reasons we have so many out of control dogs and aggressive dogs now days. I'm getting off my soap box now to go beat my dog into submission now too. She won't be hard to find, because she is lying here right by my side sleeping peaceably, where she always is when I am on the computer. The sure sign of a miserably mistreated dog who is terrified of me, the big, overpowering, authority figure in her life, wouldn't you say??
|
|
|
Post by Richard on Jun 25, 2004 16:07:37 GMT -5
Sorry, gotta throw my two cents in as well and say that when it comes to dealing with "problem dogs" that term can range from one who likes to piddle in the corner of the house to a dog that is out of control and responds to no one and likes to bite people for fun...in this case, if the dog has decided, with no human "alpha" leader, they'll lead the pack and as we know, dogs make lousy leaders in our homes....
Having said that, Iluvmypup, if you've never had to resort to harsh (which is a very bogus term when applied to dog training - must be a PP thing - plus it's a subjective term base on who is saying it as well) methods to train a dog then that is indeed good to hear. But not every dog will figure out what you want them to do when they've got it burned in their brains that they're in charge and YOU will respond to them. It just isn't that easy to say some sort of blank statements like that...every dog is different as is every trainer. We acknowledge that fact.
What needs to be said though is the characterizaton of those who use methods that work for them that seem "overpowering ect" to the dog....you don't know for sure that your method would cure the problem with food/dog aggression or whatever...it is a dog acting like a dog who has been either abused by a loser of an owner or one that has poor breeding or simply a dog that has never been shown how he or she is to behave in a home....nothing in there blames the dog..he's just acting how he thinks...with no guidance, you get the growlies and the rest of the patterns that show aggression towards the family....as amyjo said, its not cookies and clickers that will work in those cases, its the establishment of a human alpha to the dog, the use of NILIF and OB to put the thought in the dogs head that in no way, will this structure be challenged...whether it is a small dog or a large one, we have to address the fact that it is a dog and as such, we need to think in their terms....being a buddy to my dog, well, that has come after many years of training and trust between us...and yup, I use a prong collar when training, we use NILIF and a very structured alpha pack in my home......it works for me....what works for you, based on the problem of the dog you work with (and the type of dog) will work for you...but what you see as a minor annoyance and attempt to train with PP I may deem as a challenge to me as alpha and we would react different.....but I wouldn't say that your method can just reinforce the dogs control over you...."hey look, I growl and I get treats"....you know what I mean...
It is clear you are the PP side of the training style...fine...but please don't start tossing the jabs around....be honest, the PP method of training doesn't work on every dog...is it easier to make the training method fit the dog or make the dog fit the training method? Which is which?
We have a JRT in our complex that is a holy terror...no training no nothing and it seems to believe its only job in life is to try to kick the crap out of any dog she meets..including my GSD....with one of those stupid extendid leashes, there is no dog or person she can't get to....there was a Rottie here before that hated anything on 2 or 4 legs and was always in your face challenging and growling..and of course, it was always off leash as well...neither of these dogs had any training at all and being confronted by them on several occasions, my first though would be a prong collar, OB daily and a very strong program of NILIF....PP on these two would be like using tape to strap an engine on a 747.....not very useful at all...my point: you cannot simply just tar us all with the same brush cuz you think that anything firmer than a mild scruff shake is abuse....I would never ever hurt my dog but at the same time the methods I use (that I've been trained to use) meet the needs of my dog and me - I don't believe that PP works on every dog....it just isn't possible - there are too many dogs with too many problems that PP just doens't even begin to touch - but heck, if you have a fun lovin' Golden Retriever who doens't care who is in charge, but just wants to have fun...well heck, get it on....go with the PP, clicker and the halti....perfect example right there...then again, I've had a lab in a haltie shake it off and try to attack me and my dog while we were out walking one time....all I heard was "click click click click click click" and the frustrated sighs from the dogs owner as she stood there while I battled with her stupid dog trying to get to my dog......apparently it got hit by a car and for some reason it hated GSD's...I said if it is dog aggressive why are you using a halti on it and trying to PP train him...? No reply...figures eh?
Once again, I am glad your methods work... but please continue to help educate dog owners that there are numerous ways to train a dog if one way doesn't work...don't be like those hair stylists that always trash another stylists methods or styles cuz it makes them feel superior...it just shows bad form and is really bush league.
-Richard
|
|
|
Post by Willow on Jun 25, 2004 16:19:34 GMT -5
I wouldn't correct your dog for growling. You're just saying " don't give me a warning". That now means the next time he's feeling threatened, he won't growl. He'll simply go straight to the next step..biting. Well, yeah...Isn't that the point??? If you correct for growling, most dogs will get the point and not growl next time. If a dog goes from growling at me to biting if I correct him for growling, that dog has a very unstable temperment and not the type of dog I would want to own. I happen to be one who doesn't think my dog should ever growl at me, because it is because of me that my dog is able to chew on a nice juicy bone to begin with. I must lead a very sheltered life, or I must be doing something wrong, because I can honestly say that I have never had one of my dogs growl at me for any reason. I believe that is because I don't choose a dog with any aggressive tendencies to begin with. I choose my dog, not my "fights", carefully, and from the day they come into our household, whether from a puppy or an older dog I have gotten from a rescue, I am the "Alpha" first, their "best friend" second and I simply will not allow one of my dogs to show disrespect to me by growling at me, or heaven forbid, biting me! IF one of my dogs ever growled at me for ANY reason, he would learn in an instant that the behavior is unacceptable, and I wouldn't get the point across by walking away and "bribing" him with treats so I can get close to him! I realize that my training methods are totally wrong. I praise for good behavior, correct (gasp, eventhough I have seldom had to resort to more than a verbal correction,) but it has worked for me for something like 40+ years now, and being from the "old school", I also believe in, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". ;D
|
|
|
Post by sibemom on Jun 25, 2004 16:34:38 GMT -5
OH BOY Yes I have never had one of my own dogs ever growl at me for anything. I made it quite clear from the beggining that I am no push over and if you do this then your life is in danger. Sounds rough? Sounds abusive? It's not. My dogs never cower or crindge when they see me comming they trip over themselves to get to me I have never abused a dog in my life BUT I get it quite clear to them behave or else deal with the powers that be (meaning me) and your not going to like it. It's because of this strong leadership my dogs respect me. I have gone to many a dog owner who has asked for my help, and they tell me their dog is out of control whine whine. I get there and I see a good dog but an owner who refuses to take the lead. PP training may have it's place but I have not found where yet, even with service dogs. I am very glad your methods work for you but I don't think ANY of us believe PP training is the answer for all dogs.
|
|
|
Post by amyjo on Jun 25, 2004 16:46:38 GMT -5
Well you guys know that I not only have the sad distinction of being growled at by my own dog but also bitten... it was when my husband and I first moved in together. Elvis was his dog, his best friend and had passed treat based OB classes with flying colors. He never committed an aggressive act until I moved in, he reached social maturity and his position in "the pack" went from second to third. He wasn't having it and he challenged me constantly. How do you fix that with treats and clicks? I had to get tough and I had to get educated about leadership. We increased OB training, introduced corrections for non compliance, increased his exercise, took away free feeding and temporarily took away furniture privleges (really it was NILIF but we didn't know that). Thats how you fix it. This dog was looking at a needle (he did bite me in the neck when I tried to remove him from the bed). Compared to a needle - a prong or a scruff shake doesn't look so bad does it? I guess that is why I am so passionate about these methods - He is such a great dog, we have had so many wonderful years since then. I shudder to think what would have happened if we had ignored his challenges and treated him when ever he wasn't biting me
|
|
|
Post by Willow on Jun 25, 2004 17:04:45 GMT -5
I shudder to think what would have happened if we had ignored his challenges and treated him when ever he wasn't biting me Sorry for laughing, but I can just picture that..."Good boy, Elvis! You didn't bite my neck today! Here's a cookie...here's 3....Hell, take the whole bag!" This raises a good point though, Amyjo. Had you not done what you did, I doubt very much if Elvis would have improved. We see so many cases now where the dog has bitten several times already, the owner has tried the Positive approach and it has not worked. By now the dog is what I call...a "confirmed" biter, and the outcome is seldom positive!
|
|
|
Post by Aussienot on Jun 26, 2004 3:18:40 GMT -5
Bugger. I guess I really am the big, bad dog Nazi.
My dogs don't have the right to growl at me. They don't get to 'object' to me walking near them. They don't have the choice of keeping my tasty things away from me.
All of these rights are mine. I would not reward my dogs for respecting my leadership, any more than I would reward them for breathing.
And, Boxerlover, you sound like you are doing a bang-up job with Jack to me. Good work so far. Sorry about hijacking your thread.
|
|
|
Post by Iluvmypup on Jun 26, 2004 13:25:44 GMT -5
Okay, I'll stop posting after this message, as I don't want this to turn into a big debate. I'm not saying any of you abuse your dogs. None of you seem like the type that would. What I WAS saying, is that I don't agree with having to scruff shake the dog for growling. I've seen a lot of aggressive dogs become more aggressive because of that, especially towards strangers. Please don't take me the wrong way. I'm very willing to hear you guy's perspectives on training as well...
|
|