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Post by ripley on Aug 26, 2004 1:24:22 GMT -5
I saw something very sad and kind of disturbing today.. A small lady was walking in this 'mini-park' at the end of the island I live on. She had a male rottweiler that had a muzzle on. He was lunging and trying to bite everyone who walked by, and the lady completely ignored this behavior. Each time the dog would calm down, which was only when nobody was near, she would click her clicker and give him treats and praise. The second someone would stand up or walk, this dog was lunging and barking again. This time she decided to distract him, and she tried to lure him into a sit with a treat, but the dog was too agitated to pay attention, so she started whispeing to him to calm down.. The entire 40 minutes or so that Ripley and I were there, that dog was lunging on the leash, and all the lady did was click the clicker while nobody was around. (I was ready to go slap a pinch collar on him)
When it was just her and me there, I went over and we started talking, and the whole time the dog, who was tied to the table she was sitting at, was lunging and trying to get to me. She explained that she'd been clicker training him for a year (he is almost 2) and that he knew all the commands but chose the specific occasion that he wanted to obey them. She also mentioned that she was told only to use positive methods of training, and she had never given the dog a leash correction.
The dog is neutered, and not very highly motivated by toys and although he is food motivated, he would rather bark at people and other dogs than get a treat, even though he does know what she wants... She also believes that it's up to him to follow her commands or not, that a dog will always choose the best option.
Now, the debate I had with my friend (Who is a PP trainer through and through) after I got home is: When do you just give UP the happy happy good boy stuff and use some force and stern corrections on a dog that is not eager to please and unmotivated?
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Post by sibemom on Aug 26, 2004 2:54:12 GMT -5
Interesting Now of course this is just my opinion, but at the first sign of this kind of behavior I would of put a prong collar on. The longer you allow this to go on, and in this case the dog is already two, the harder it is to correct it. Common sense would tell you that if you have been using this method for awhile and the dog is just not obeying, you need to pump it up. It sounds like this woman has no clue as to how to establish a leadership role with her dog, so maybe she is the one that needs the training collar ;D. That is the one thing I have found true with the prong collar, even the softest handler can get results because the collar does the work for you. Even if you are soft spoken in nature, the collar delivers a correction the dog can understand. In the beggining phase of using it the dog is self correcting and because you are holding the end of the leash, they get the idea that pulling, and lunging are uncomfortable, and in no time at all stop.
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Post by Nicole on Aug 26, 2004 6:53:15 GMT -5
This is the kind of thing that really ticks me off. :(I think it is irresponsible to advise someone to clicker train a lunging barking out of control Rottie. When do you give up? My answer is you never start with the pp in this situation. One of the major flaws in PP is the inflexibility of those who propogate it. The failure to recognize that it is innapropriate for use in many many situations and with most dogs. Yes it can be used for some things. I use positive all the time to teach and up to a point. But to think this method will work to stop an out of control Rottie who is aggressively lunging at people is IMO insane. This dog needs a correction PLUS NILIF and an authoritative owner who can handle him.
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Post by FourPawsTwoFeet on Aug 26, 2004 10:50:22 GMT -5
You bring up a really interesting point. Obviously there is something wrong with the situation, but I don't think the base of the problem is the method, but it's application. In positive training, if the dog is barking and lunging the damage is already done - the handler pushed too far too fast. Rather than going to a park with things that the dog has issues with, it'd make far more sense to start him off in a controlled environment, where the people are two hundred feet away rather than 5. It also sounds like she doesn't really have any guidelines for what she wants the dog to do when people come by, but rather knows what she doesn't want him to do. It's far easier to teach a dog when the handler knows "I want him to watch me every time a stranger comes by" or "I want him to sit" or "I want him to make an immediate U-turn and follow me elsewhere" rather than "I don't want him to lunge, bark, etc." I see your point, if she isn't having success she should certainly reevaluate her training plan. It's possible that positive training could still work though, if taken slowly enough and done correctly. You may want to recommend Feisty Fido; Help for the Leash Aggressive Dog by Patricia McConnell & Karen London next time you see her. Just a thought Other methods could work as well, but if she wants to go positive it would be better for both her and her dog to set themselves up for success rather than pushing to the point of lunging and barking.
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Post by Willow on Aug 26, 2004 11:34:59 GMT -5
Most every PP trainer I know, including Patricia McConnell will tell the owner with a dog like this to pts rather than even try something else, such as a pinch collar. Sad. And I don't mean "Species Appropriate Diet".
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Post by ripley on Aug 26, 2004 15:08:59 GMT -5
Saw her again today, walking Mr. Big down the street... He's not really extremely aggressive, but he's VERY dominant and excitable, not to mention huge. (He probably weighs 180lbs, and is in good shape) This lady is not so much soft-spoken as she is a sissy (Sorry. ) She's just a wuss when it comes to that dog. She calls him "sweetie" and whispers 'commands' to him that really sound more like she's asking him for a favor. I've only been around the dog a couple of times, but this dog needs a different owner. JMHO. She's not willing to take control and is perfectly happy with him walking all over her, and he is going to hurt her or someone else someday if she doesn't cut this crap out and start showing him who's in charge. ps- Willow, I'm not really experienced with PP trainers, but are you serious?! Why pts a dog that can easily be managed by using a different training method?
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Post by fireworksinjuly on Aug 26, 2004 15:16:55 GMT -5
Some day that dog will get overly excited over something and take off, dragging her behind him, she wont be able to do anything. (I can picture that huge dog litterally dragging her behind him on her face) and shes gonna get mad at the dog and put it to sleep when it was her own (want to insert swear word but im refraining) fault.
edit- PP trainers are too stubborn in thinking that their way is the only way. argh
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Post by Willow on Aug 26, 2004 15:40:30 GMT -5
edit- PP trainers are too stubborn in thinking that their way is the only way. argh Exactly. They would rather label a dog "dangerous" and "untrainable" than admit their clicker/treats/no corrections didn't work.
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Post by ripley on Aug 26, 2004 15:46:17 GMT -5
I think that's being a little unfair, I know a girl who is a PP trainer, and she's actually very open-minded, and will admit when PP just WILL NOT WORK for a certain dog.
Most PP trainers, instead of administering corrections to an unruly dog, go all out to find a 'gentle' way to correct the behavior, like the gentle leader, which is actually, IMO, more dangerous and possibly cruel than any prong collar would be...
They seem to have a fear of being directly associated with reprimanding the dog. It doesn't break trust at ALL, it enforces that you will not allow your rules to be broken. That in fact is making you a more secure leader, since dogs like predictablility.
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Post by masha on Aug 27, 2004 4:26:50 GMT -5
I think FourPawsTwoFeet makes a very good point in saying that the owner needs to know what she wants the dog to do, and not just what she wants her not to do.
Surely this must be what Positive Training is all about? And any other kind of training for that matter?
She should rather be focussing on getting that dog to focus on her exclusively in a non distracting environment, rather than just reacting when the dog starts misbehaving. Isnt that just not doing PP correctly?
I cant really understand whats wrong with correcting a dog - since they dont understand what we want, and we expect them to behave, you have to find some way of showing them? And in a way they will understand. OK, I am an ignoramus when it comes to Positive training so I should probably not comment, but I always try to think about the situation as a dog would understand it. "My alpha leader top dog wolf woman is praising me for not behaving badly?? And when I misbehave, she does not praise me?? I must behave ??" Does not really ring true to me...
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Post by Aussienot on Aug 27, 2004 19:17:56 GMT -5
A two year old male Rotti who has socialisation problems at best, and fear or dominance aggression at worst, with a soft natured small owner, attempting to use Purely Positive. The owner is at least trying, and kudos on the muzzle,but I don't see a long term happy outcome here.
Dog rating 217, effectiveness of training - 4.
Someday, I'd like to do a survey of dogs surrendered to Pounds and Rescues and what kind of training they have had, if any. Don't think there would be too many prong dogs, that's all I'm saying.
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Post by ripley on Aug 27, 2004 23:00:31 GMT -5
She talked to me today, she bought a prong collar and doesn't know what to do with it. Kinda typical for someone who uses PP methods.. I gave her a link on how to fit the collar and how to use it correctly.. Hopefully it'll help him learn what's acceptable. He's a big sweetie, just a rowdy, vocal and dominant one..
BTW Aussienot, sounds like a good idea...
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Post by Iluvmypup on Sept 6, 2004 8:43:35 GMT -5
Someday, I'd like to do a survey of dogs surrendered to Pounds and Rescues and what kind of training they have had, if any. Don't think there would be too many prong dogs, that's all I'm saying. I highly doubt they get any training...just free treats and occasionally they'll know the SIT or SHAKE command, but thats it. They're usually 'backyard ornaments' as I like to call them...just there for looks and puppy cuteness...once thats gone, the dog is gone, and a new puppy comes their way. Its the circle of irresponsible dog ownership. OK, here's my opinion on this topic. This lady needs help. First of all, she's not clickertraining, she's just just clicking and treating. Theres a huge difference. This dog is NOT being trained, but rather getting treats when people are gone and gets his way when they are nearby. I get people like this a lot...where the dog basically learns that the clicker is just a food marker, rather then marking the right behaviour. If this has been going on for a year, then the dog hasn't learned anything, rather then that the clicker is meaningless. The clicker should only be used to teach new behaviours or to get behaviours to be answered faster and better. The longest I've used a clicker for one behaviour is 3 days...much different then a year. ;D This lady needs some serious help before the dog gets worse...apparently she isn't teaching him anything.
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Post by Rowan on Oct 1, 2004 1:30:27 GMT -5
Can feel for this lady, most established training centers are not set up to deal with extreme problem dogs and handlers. Alot of them will turn them away.
My first GSD 10 years ago was a normal pup, active young in training classes 3 levels of ob, agility on the weekends and decided to take him to comformation classes. First day of class a lady lost control of her adult Bouv which bee lined across the room and attacked my then 8 month old pup it distroyed his confidence. Pretty much what this lady was dealing with was the result.
Spent 2 years from that date going to seminars on behaviors had the pleasure of meeting and talking to Turid Rugaas the author of Calming signals. I used her methods to set up senerios I would grab perfect strangers in a park with and with out dogs and ask them to help and tell them exactly to the letter what I needed them to do what distance, what body posture. Any key issue was attempted to be accounted for to set up the problem to obtain the best results. Best training I have ever done for results. Setting up training getting everyone on the same sheet of music took more time then the actual training event lol... short simple accomplished and on our way back home. Was an excellent first level regained some levels of confidence, able to obey commands restored self control. Yet through out all that training there was still an edge on him a tension he did not feel safe though he would behave.
Just my thoughts he needed to confront his fears and win. Wonderful trainer Pat O'Connell exceptional decoy help put him through some on lead bite work. Pat stated that my dog sucked for ever meeting any level of Shultzhund lol.. I could agree with him at what he was getting at and what he is used to working with.., that he could not esculate a higher level of intensity from my dog besides playing a good game of fair tug of war. Never had to correct him he obeyed evey command the first time, and was truly enjoying the game and the rules on how it should be played.
when we went to muzzle training Pat told me he was going to push me and told me I will have to tell my dog to get him not thinking my dog would understand to do anything. I felt his observation would be correct and I was ready to send him. Pat pushed me so hard unexpectanly I flew backwards feet flying over my head lol, my dog took one look at me met my eyes and took off after Pat coming up the front of him knocking him down and going for his throat. I called him out and heel and he stopped and came, snorting all the way back lol. But a perfect release and recal the first time. Pat was happy with the response felt a little bit better that the dog wasn't a total waste lol... Pat approached him petted him and he was totally relaxed, no more tension he was finally able to let the last of the experience go. We trained for 3 months one day a week wtih me continueing my Calming signal methods through out the weeks. It restored my confidence as well, truly being in a controled environment with a qualified decoy and being able to see what he was made of, what choices he would make with out me to man handle him to intervine. Best $25.00 an hour I ever spent.
Takes times and may be many layers to get through using different approaches that are best effected to that part of learning. I agree if it isn't working move on but never give up. ;D
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Post by ixtlan on Feb 14, 2005 11:39:10 GMT -5
Hi to all, I have just joined in here on this forum and have only posted a couple of times. I have for a long time been of the opinion that most people do not have much idea how to train their dogs. It should be the responsibility of someone who wants to have a dog to find out about them and look at as many trainging methods as they can and find one that fits them and their dog. (am I asking too much?) Most don't and if they do try a training method it's so piecemeal that the principles that are the functional part of the training are lost. In other words I think you need to understand why you are doing what you're doing with your dog. Otherwise you can not think about problems and come up with answers that can correct them. It doesn't sound to me like this lady was doing any type of training I've read about. Understanding your dog is the best part of training. I get so unhappy when I see all these beatiful dogs suffering this kind of treatment. There is alot of hope for this Rot, but most likely not if it stays with this woman. What cha gonna do!
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