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Post by ripley on Aug 18, 2004 17:36:36 GMT -5
There was a debate going on in a chat room I went in about Wolf Dogs.. I couldn't describe it to you if I tried, but I think this would be an interesting debate here, since people here know more about dogs than the folks in the chat room did.
What's your opinion of the increasing number of people owning wolf-dogs? What's your opinion of wolf-dogs in general? Should they be considered a dog and kept as dogs?
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Post by sibemom on Aug 19, 2004 6:30:20 GMT -5
Oh where does one begin. I feel that there is no place in society for dogs purposly mixed with Wolves. Wolves are wild animals and should be treated as such. Dogs are domesticated and used for companions. The rising numbers of people wanting to own one or already owning one is increasing and with pure ignorance on their part. It is illegal in the state I live in to own such an animal and for good reason. Why would you mix the two on purpose WHY I never could understand that, but yet there are breeders out there who raise these dogs. They are very different in nature than dogs and because of this it would be like owning a Tiger and callling it a large house cat. You can not take the wild out of an animal. Even wolves raised in captivity who appear to be tamed are still wolves. I watched a show once on a woman who is trying to save the wolf and she stated over and over again, not to be fooled by their gentle nature because they are still wild. She also made reference to the Hybrid and said it was a dangerous mix. A friend of ours owns a small family zoo in Michigan, and he has several diffrent types of wolves. I asked him about how he deals with them and he said very carefully because even though they come to you just like a dog, and want affection from you keep in mind these are wolves not dogs. He to is disgusted when he hears of people getting Hybrids because they think it's cool.
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Post by Willow on Aug 19, 2004 7:12:25 GMT -5
Ann is correct.
I don't know if I am explaining this correctly, but what I read is that when you mix a wolf and a dog, it does not domesticate the wolf. It only takes, or breeds the natural "fear" of humans out of them and makes them dangerous. it also puts enough "wild" into the dog to make them dangerous.
In the wild a wolf will not normally attack a human, unless it is rabid or sick/starving, and even so, the last I read there are no "documented" cases of this happening.
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Post by amyjo on Aug 19, 2004 8:06:40 GMT -5
All true! - the other issue that most people don't consider, is that wolves bond far more tightly to their "pack" than dogs do.
This is a survival mechanism. So if you make yourself the "pack" of a wolf or wolf-hybrid. There is very little chance that a regular working person can meet the psychological/interaction requirements of this animal...
This results in lots and lots unhappiness and destruction in the house and yard.
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Post by ripley on Aug 19, 2004 12:59:16 GMT -5
I agree.
You mentioned that wolves bond much more tightly to their pack than dogs. When you wind up with a wolf hybrid, you could get an animal that doesn't bond well with its pack and winds up killing all the other dogs in the house. Wolves don't fight just for the heck of it like dogs do, when they attack, they're dead serious.
Most of the breeders of wolf dogs are just greedy and they know that idiots wanting an ego boost will pay lots of money for a wolfdog.
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Post by masha on Aug 27, 2004 4:43:51 GMT -5
I saw a documentary about a Russian research project on the difference between domestic dogs and wild animals. They believe that domestic dogs came about because people tended to keep the mildest wolves or jackals near them, and bred these mild friendly "baby like" animals.
They did an experiment with wild jackals. They found that the puppy jackals would be very sweet and "puppy like" while young. Aparently a young wild animal behaves like a puppy: it is friendly and trusting, and interested in learning new things. But when these pups became adults, they became wild. Not friendly. They were behaving in the way a wild adult should, no more interest in learning and no more trusting. No matter how much training or time you spent, they would change completely when they became adults.
But when they bred the most "puppy like" of these jackals together, they found something interesting. After 4 generations of breeding the jackals that made the friendliest puppies together, the resulting pups stopped making the transition to adulthood. They stayed friendly, eager to learn and easy going, not so focused on their pack. They became "domestic" and like our dogs, who are actually like puppies even when they are phisically mature.
I'm sure that breeding wolves and dogs together is a bad idea - because you probably dont know what youre doing! I saw a dog that was one part Mamaluke (sp?) and 3 parts timber wolf the other day - she was realy odd. Not interested in humans at all. There was no feeling of comunication when you looked in her eyes. Jus flat wolfy eyes.
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Post by Seijun on Sept 12, 2004 23:43:25 GMT -5
I feel I must reply here as I do have some expertice in wolfdogs..
As long as they are kept responsibly, I don't care.
They can be wonderful animals if you know what you are doing.
That depends. Some with very little wolf in them are no different than husky or GSD mixes. Others CANNOT be kept like 'normal' dogs.
To comment on some previous comments.
Why would someone breed them? Because some people DO like the challenge they present. I for one, am one such person. Not everyone gets them just to look cool. (although most breeders do breed for money, and most buyers buy to look cool)
They are all mixes, they are all different, just as every Lab mix won't be exactly the same. Mixing dog with wolf doesn not guarantee that it will loose it's fear of humans. More often than not, wolfdogs with a lot of wolf content will be very shy.
Wolfdogs are no more or less aggressive than other dogs. The following is an explanation into the potentially aggressive nature of wolfdogs..
I have been studying wolfdogs for only 2.5 years, and in that time I have learned much, much more than most people know about them. My teachers and mentors were/are people who have worked over 10 or 20 years with wolfdogs, one spent many years working at Wolf Park and actually helping to raise many of the wolves they have. It is estimated that 90% of the wolfdogs sold in this country are sold as being higher in wolf content than they actually are. In my experience, I would say at least 70% of those sold have NO wolf in them at all. Many of the so called "attack stories" involved dogs mislabeled as wolfdogs (although there is no doubt that wolfdogs have killed and/or attacked humans-it is this way with all types of dogs).
The following I learned from those mentors and from reading David Mech's books on wolf behavior.
Wolves are not domesticated, but wolfdogs are not wolves. Many do not make good "pets" for the average person, but you have to remember, they are MIXES. There are some wolfdogs that DO make good pets, mostly because they don't have a lot of wolf in them. Low content wolfdogs are often no different that Siberian Huskies in temperament and needs (although even to a beginning dog owner, huskies can be difficult to care for). It is a myth they are all aggressive. Like all dogs, some are more dominant in personality than others and some will be more aggressive than others. High content wolfdogs DO sometimes get what is called Winter Wolf Syndrome (WWS). This is a condition when, during the winter, the wolfdog may become more aggressive and may challenge for dominance among the pack members. HOWEVER, a wolfdog will rarely outright challenge the alpha human owner, unless the owner had a VERY unstable alpha position staked out to begin with (an owner of a high content who does not understand canine language and who does not know how to properly handle WWS WILL increase the likely hood of their being challenged, but even then, serious injury is not extremely likely). (Neutering or spaying a wolfdog before it matures USUALLY eliminates most or all of its chances for getting WWS in any noticeable severety). No owner who has themselves firmly established as alpha should ever have to fear that their wolfdog might challenge for dominance unless they have a wolfdog with a particularly alpha personality (with some wolfdogs, you have to REALLY be able to understand canine language in order to properly establish your alpha position). Even in the wild, wolves with WWS will rarely challenge the alpha. Mostly, they will challenge members closer to their own status. Wolves don't like to fight, and usually avoid it if possible. A battle with the alpha could turn deadly or result in serious injury-this is something a wolf pack cannot afford. I personally, have only known of ONE wolfdog (actually, it was a wolf) who outright attacked the owner for dominance. This particular animal came from a very aggressive/dominant line though. Also, I have only known one person who ever had to PTS their wolfdog because of aggressivenes. Wolves, in general, are NOT aggressive, and do not like to fight. There is absolutely no reason your wolfdog would try killing all the other members of its "pack" unless that wolfdog had an EXTREMELY alpha/aggressive personality, or was a female with severe S-S aggression living with a pack of female dogs. As I stated before, wolves can't afford to injure their pack-mates, they need their pack to survive! For this reason, it would be unlikely for a wolfdog to seriously injure or kill its packmates unless it was very aggressive, a "super alpha", or was a female with S-S aggression living with other females (S-S aggression is usually worst among high content wolfdogs). When owning a wolfdog, aggressiveness will most likely be the least of your worries.
They can be destructive and they often have high prey drive. They like to roam and are good escape artists. It takes patience to own one and most people wouldn't have that sort of patience. However, that doesn't mean that EVERYONE can't keep them. As I said before, most wolfdogs sold have little or no wolf content, and will most likely be no more difficult than huskies. Would I recomend someone keep a high content as a pet? Absolutely not, they are not good "pets" for the average owner, but I do know several people who do have high contents and who have the knowlege and patience to properly care for them. They love the animals and the animals love them. It all depends on how much you are willing to deal with and how much you can physically deal with. My wolfdog is the best companion I ever had, but the majority of people out there would NOT be able to handle her. I love wolfdogs and always will. I don't want to look cool, I just like them. No other dog could ever take the place of a wolfdog for me.
~Seij
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Post by masha on Sept 13, 2004 1:48:25 GMT -5
Well thats interesting -
I geuss keeping a dog like this is pretty much just like keeping any other large dog, but more extreme - you have less lee-way with things like establishing a clear hierarchy, and coping with aggresive behaviour.
I'm also very interested in this aspect of canine behaviour:
I geuss that kind of behaviour is reinforced by growing up in an apropriate pack situation and learning the whole dominance/submission dance. If a part wolf dog does not learn this behaviour, it would probably become a problem later on - just like any dog, I suppose. I say this because our Groenendael is like this - he does not seem to know how to interpret a submissive position in another dog, and he CANNOT submit himself. A real problem, and I think it is because he was never socialised as a pup.
I must say I agree with the asessment that many dogs that are supposedly part wolf are not. I think people get a thril out of the idea. They are always coming up to me and asking me if my White Swiss Shepherd is a wolf, and then act all disapointed when I tell them she is not. Or not believe me! Funny kind of soppy wolf she would make, too.
I've heard that there have been some attempts in Germany (if not elsewhere) to improve the German Shepherd blood line by introducing wolf into the breed. The idea is that the modern Shepherd has become become less intelligent, less hardy and shorter lived than its wild ancestors. Would this plan actually work? Or is it too much of a roulette?
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Post by sibemom on Sept 13, 2004 7:11:33 GMT -5
Interesting to say the least BUT I still feel that to breed them on purpose is WRONG. Why with all the breeds out there would you take a nobel animal like the wolf and mix it with a dog I think the mix can be extremly dangerous. Many states have bans on owing such a dog, and yes I agree that if it is a very low content you probably won't even notice. Why not just own a Siberian Husky or a GSD, they are probably the closest to the wolf in domesticated dogs. I love the wolf and for that reason I choose breeds that resemble them. I would never own a dog though that was mixed with one because I have very strong feelings about messing with nature. I am glad that you have had good experiences with your own WD and others and you are right not everyone should even think of owning one, but that is where the problem comes in and thus why there are rescues. There are way to many people that can't handle a domestic dog much less one that is mixed with a wolf but that does not stop them from getting one. So the problem continues and the dogs end up in rescues or shelters or if in a state where they are outlawed PTS. To me that is just not fair to either side. So my opinon is not to breed them at all.
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Post by Willow on Sept 13, 2004 7:49:40 GMT -5
I agree, Seijun, that what you have written is interesting and it does help one understand the WD more, however, I agree with Sibemom 100% and I also don't believe in "messing with nature" just because someone "likes" something. Eventually, it gets into the hands of people who don't have a clue, or who use it in the wrong way. i.e. Pitbull.
In the end it is the dog or WD that suffers because of human ignorance or just not caring.
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Post by Seijun on Sept 13, 2004 11:05:43 GMT -5
Yes, that’s the main difference between wolfdogs and “average” dogs. Wolfdogs, especially ones with a lot of wolf, are like huskies or mals multiplied by 100! There is often VERY little room for mistakes and you have to be a lot more understanding of canine behavior. Their behavior is much more “intense”. Even I do not have a high or mid content wolfdog, and I do not plan to until many years, perhaps even never. Many of the people I know with high content wolfdogs did not get theirs until they had spent many years working with them at sanctuaries or other places. Their behavior is so extreme that it can take years for you to properly understand it all and become accustomed to properly handling it. Yes, if done properly, reintroducing "wolf blood" does improve shepherd lines. But it has to be done very carefully. Wolf mixes are often shy and their independent nature often results in an animal that will only listen to you when it feels like it Shepherds need to be very obedient, willing to please, and social. I have seen Shepherds that came from lines of wolf mixing and they are very nice dogs. Intelligent and slightly more "wolfy" looking. You have to remember of course that they breed the wolfdogs back to the shepherd many times in order to breed away shyness and other undesirable traits, while at the same time keeping the intelligence. This is very difficult to do and involves a lot of careful selective breeding, but it can work. The Czechoslovakian wolfdog is a breed of dog originally made from German shepherd and wolf crosses. It is not considered a GSD, but it does closely resemble the "original" GSD's. They have been used in police work and are said to be very intelligent and much better that GSD's. Although the Czech wolfdog was only recently produced from wolfdog breedings, it is many generations removed from the original wolves used to create them, so they are now considered a dog, and not a wolf/dog hybrid. Like I said, whether they are dangerous or not depends on many factors. True many states do have bans. IMO, bans are NOT the way to go, it solves nothing really, and only punishes good owners. In MI, where wolfdogs were banned, one breeder simply changed the names of her wolfdogs to "Native American Indian Dogs." She shot the high contents and kept the low contents, which she still breeds and sells to this day. In Alaska, one breeder of wolves and high contents just changed the names of his to "Golden-eyed Husky mixes". He runs a puppy mill with 50-60 adult wolves/wolfdogs and sells to anyone with money. I have also seen MANY husky and GSD mixes PTS in illegal states because they were sold as wolfdogs, even if they weren't. According to law though, if you call it a wolfdog, that's what it is even if it looks nothing like one. Speaking of MI, wolfdogs were banned there after one kills a kid. The wolfdog's name was Ivan, but ironically, Ivan wasn't even a wolfdog to begin with. He was a malamute, perhaps a malamute mix. Somewhere during the trial, his label was "changed" to WOLFdog, I believe by the parent of the child who was killed. Because, some of us just aren't satisfied with huskies or mals. Wolfdogs with a sizeable amount of wolf content can be much more "intense" that huskies or mals. Of course, this also means that they are a lot harder to care for, but some of us love the intensity enough that we are willing to put up with it all. I think it is the very challenge of trying to keep one that makes us like them. I know many people would question why in the world someone would want a "pet" that would destroy the house, destroy the yard, who needs containment that costs thousands to build, who needs INTENSE socialization, who may never be able to travel (many high contents don't like car rides) and who will take up every spare ounce of time and money you have.. BUT, like I said, some of us just like that sort of stuff, we aren't satisfied with a dog that will sit at our feet and obey our every command, and who only demands a fraction of our time every day for feeding and maybe a bit of playing. If you don't think they should be bred, I honestly don't have a problem with that, I often wish the breeding would stop, simply because I hate seeing them in rescue, but I do not think it is bad to breed something purely because we want to have it. I know that there are several dog breeds today that were originally created not to serve a purpose like herding or guarding, but to simply act as a "pet" or companion (the Lhasa Apso and other toy breeds for example). Most people today breed dogs to sell to people as pets; I rarely see dogs performing the jobs they were originally created to do. I personally only know less that 5 GOOD wolfdog breeders in the entire North America. They always ensure that the puppies go to approved homes and they always have homes lined up even before the pups were born. If these select few breeders were the only ones out there breeding wolfdogs, we wouldn't have any problem with them in shelters, bad homes, inexperienced hands, etc. Ok, I've noticed that the Leerburg site is listed up there as a source to visit for dominance/aggression problems-anyone who has seen this guy's position on wolfdogs KNOWS that he hates them with a passion; he believes breeding should be banned and all existing wolfdogs should be killed. He thinks this because he believes all wolfdogs are "kid-killers". I would just like to point out that although his information is, for the most part, truthful, wolfdogs are NOT all "kid-killers". True, high contents can be dangerous to children because of their extremely high prey drive (I know several people who would never let their high contents around children for this reason), HOWEVER, a running, squealing child could be viewed as potential prey to ANY dog with high prey drive who is unsocialized to children or who doesn't realize that they are humans, not prey. Of all the dog attacks that occur in this country, children have the highest rate of injury. Prey drive is one of the leading factors behind dog attacks on children. Although wolfdogs have attacked and killed children, pits, rotties, GSD's, and many other breeds have all been guilty of viewing children as prey. This does not make them "evil", nor does it mean they should all be destroyed. Prey drive is a natural instinct. A wolfdog or dog who has not been raised with children and that has VERY high prey drive could all easily view children as prey. This is why it is SO very important that wolfdog owners be aware of their animal's potential, and NEVER leave them alone unsupervised with children. In a recent attack on a child by a wolfdog, the two were left ALONE together despite the fact that the wolfdogs owner knew his animal was not good with children. I just wanted to point all that out, as many people reading Leerburg's page are led into believing that all wolfdogs are the horrible killers just waiting to gobble up little kids. Some people have even been led into putting their wolfdog to sleep after reading Leerburg's site. A wolfdog raised with children can actually be very good around children, I know several such animals. Then again there are those that DO view children as prey (my own wolfdog was never raised with kids, she has very high prey drive and I would never trust her to be around anyone younger than 12 or 13 years old). It is just something that owners need to be aware of; it is not because the wolfdog is an evil killer or anything like that. ~Seij
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Post by masha on Sept 13, 2004 16:49:03 GMT -5
OK - I'm obviously rather ignorant about all this - but seeing that wolves are endangered in many parts, isnt it rather odd to be mixing wolves with dogs? Shouldnt breeding programs be focussing on keeping that gene pool pure?
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Post by Seijun on Sept 13, 2004 17:19:22 GMT -5
You are right, the grey wolf is an endangered species, however in North America, it is actually doing quite well. The grey wolf is no longer endangered in either Canada or Alaska. It's numbers are large enough now in the US that populations have began to spread without human aid. The gov. has considered removing the Grey wolf from the endangered species list, although I don't know if this was actually done or not. Considering the number of endangered species that haven't and may never recover, the Grey wolf is one of the US's greatest success stories. Of course in other parts of the world, the Grey wolf is still highly endangered. Wolves used for wolfdog breedings though are subspecies such as Canis lupus nubilus and Canis lupus occidentalis. These are subspecies which are unique to North America are are not highly endangered. Their numbers are high enough that captive breeding programs are no longer needed to sustain their numbers. There are many other Grey wolf subspecies that ARE highly endangered, such as Canis lupus baileyi and Canis lupus signatus. These subspecies, and all of the subspecies found in Europe and Asia, are not used in wolfdog breedings. Also, most of the wolves used in wolfdog breedings decended from the fur farms of old, and are many generations removed from wild wolves (although this does not make them domestic). VERY few wolves are taken from the wild these days for wolfdog breedings. I have only known a few wolves that were taken directly from the wild to breed to dogs and they were considered "problem" wolves-wolves that had become too used to humans or that had began preying on livestock.
~Seij
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Post by Willow on Sept 13, 2004 19:37:17 GMT -5
I am interested to know what you and other's who own WD's feed them? Do you/they feed them a "Species appropriate diet", or kibble?
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Post by sibemom on Sept 13, 2004 19:47:53 GMT -5
I appreciate your arguments to the positive side of the WD but I still must disagree. I know there are many people out there who love this mix but to me it is disrespect to an animal that has had many obsticles to over come. They were hunted and killed, classified as killers themselves and it was unjust. The wolf is a beautiful animal and should be left to roam wild, or in sanctuarys to preserve the ones that are becoming extinct. Preseving them is what should be worked on not mixing them with dogs and bringing them into the human world. I think we have crowded them enough in their natural habitat, and then to mix them with dogs and keep them as pets to me is just unfair. I have the same feelings about the Wild Mustang, yes I have adopted several and although these are horses they are still wild. You can get them to conform but you will NEVER get the wild out of them. Much different than a horse bred and raised in captivity, even with the young ones. I would rather see them allowed to roam free, but again they are being crowded out by progress. I bred one of the mares and her foal was much different than any of my other foals. It was like an inherant instinct to be wild. Not quite as bad as mom, but it was there. I think we humans should leave nature be. There have been enough good dog breeds ruined by our interference and now we are starting on the wolf. It makes me sad.
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