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Post by Seijun on Sept 13, 2004 20:24:55 GMT -5
I am interested to know what you and other's who own WD's feed them? Do you/they feed them a "Species appropriate diet", or kibble? I am not really an expert at wolfdog diets, my low content does fine an 'regular' dog food, but I know for sure that high contents have to be fed a lot of raw meat-chicken necks, deer, or whatever else the owners can find. Wolves can't survive on dog food alone so many wolfdogs have to have meat added to their diet. Most owners just have to experiement to find out what sort of diet works best for the animal. Here is a page written by a good friend of mine on wolfdogs, at the very bottom there is a small section of diet. users3.ev1.net/~pamthompson/health_&_diet.htmOn the subject of "wild" mustangs, I do not consider them wild animals since they are not native to this country. Technically, they are feral and in theory, any feral animal can be "re" domesticated. A dingo is really just a feral dog and some tribes still use them as hunting companions. ~Seij
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Post by masha on Sept 14, 2004 2:20:22 GMT -5
Well, it seems from this thread and a number of others about pit bulls and other controversial breeds, that the answer cant always be to make a law banning or controlling a certain breeding practice. A law is useless if it cannot be enforced. From what Seijun says, people simply go underground, and that might make it even more difficult to regulate them.
In an environment in which we cannot even control the breeding normal dogs, its very difficult to think how one can control special cases like these.
From reading these threads it seems the problem is not so much with the kind of dog that gets bred, but with the people who are not responsible for what happens to the dogs once they are born. I geuss anyone who breeds dogs should be far more answerable to people who care about the welfare of dogs - since they are not always one and the same.
But how to achieve that?
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Post by Aussienot on Sept 14, 2004 17:25:47 GMT -5
I've stayed out this debate until now because I have strong ethical concerns about committing crimes against nature to simply to feed mankind’s vanity. I didn't want to influence the free flow of information and discussion on an interesting topic.
However, Seijun, when you called on the Dingo to support your cause, I need to put forward some conflicting Aussie viewpoints.
The Australian Dingo (Canis lupus dingo) is recognised subspecies of the wolf-like canids. It is believed to be the original canid that formed an alliance with humans in what is now South East Asia, roughly 10,000 years ago. So while they are not indigenous to Australasia, having arrived in Australia about 5000 years ago, they certainly are less an introduced species then, let's say, white settlers in Australia.
Or, for that matter, white settlement of the US. The tag of Feral is relative. Very little in the world has not moved from area to area. So the 'it's not from here, must be ok to mutate it argument' is disturbingly insular and not particularly historically astute.
The Dingo is scientifically recognised as biologically distinct from dogs, with differences in reproduction (dingoes only come into season once a year), and other physical and physiological characters. The Dingo has distinct genetic markers and blood conjoiners. It's not just a 'feral dog'.
Dingos exhibit the transition from playful social puppy to aggressive sexual maturity that has been noted as a behavioral hallmark of wild dogs.
Incidently, the "hunting" you refer to consists of hanging the dingo off the side of a boat for shark bait. The fact that you refer to Aboriginal “tribes” indicates you may be working off second hand information, as that term is not used for this culture.
Some Dingos can certainly be tamed, and many have interbred with domesticated dogs. Some are kept as pets, with relative degrees of success, but it is strongly socially discouraged, and viewed by most people as a bad thing for the future of the Dingo.
The Dingo is actually at risk of extinction in Australia. The genetic base has been diluted because of all the intermixing with domestic dogs.
I find it very sad to encourage the destruction of Wolves in the same way.
And Masha, I wish someone knew the answer to your question. Personally, I think it comes back to education, and unfortunately some sort of licensing and legal structure for enforcement.
Perhaps a topic for another debate thread?
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Post by Seijun on Sept 14, 2004 18:24:34 GMT -5
Actually, some ARE used as hunting companions to catch small game. The following is a quote from "The origin of the Dog Revisited" by Janice Koler-Matznick. (oh, and they never used the word "tribes", I did because I was in a hurry and couldn't think of how to spell "aboriginial").
" dingoes provide a modern example of tamed wild candids as hunting aids (Hayden 1975). The Aboriginies used dingoes to locate small prey that goes to ground or trees, but prevented dingoes from following when hunting kangaroos because the dingoes chased them off (Meggitt 1965)."
I was not using the dingo as support of breeding wolfdogs, I was using it to show that the "once wild, always wild" viewpoint is an incorrect one.
How exactly is breeding dogs to wolves " destroying" wolves (as your viewpoint implies)? As I mentioned earlier, wolves are doing well enough in the US that reintroduction efforts are no longer needed. There are enough wolves that they can sustain themselves. Using wolves to breed to dogs does not take away from wild wolf survival efforts because a) wild wolves aren't used to make wolfdogs b) captive wolves are no longer needed for reintroduction efforts c) the chances of a wolfdog escaping to the wild and "contaminating" wild wolf genes is EXTREMELY rare. Even if the wolfdog COULD survive in the wild (they wouldn't unless raised in the wild) wild wolves would most likely kill it. d) wolves have NATURALLY been breeding with domestic dogs for centuries. Indian dogs often interbred with wolves. The dogs were MUCH closer to wild wolf habitats than they are now therefore chances were much greater that they would have bred with a wolf. If "contamination" of wolf genes was to happen due to wolfdogs, it would have happened a long time ago when the Indians still owned this land (it is actually my hypothesis that there is no such thing as a 'pure' wolf, that ALL wolves, at one point or another in history have had dog genes mixed in). e) the idea that mixing wolves and dogs together " degrades" a wolf, strikes me as being the equivelent of saying the dog is a degrading creature and is somehow "lower" in status than wolves. Anyhow, the " degrading" wolves idea is purely from human emotion, and hold no basis in scientific fact.
If you don't agree with mixng wolves and dogs I don't really have that big a problem with it, a lot of people base their opinions on feeling, not fact. Just pointing out some factual reasons though as to why wolf/dog breeding is not harmful to the plight of wild wolves.
~Seij
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Post by ripley on Sept 15, 2004 2:54:59 GMT -5
Maybe I haven't picked this up in this thread, but I just have one question.
WHY? WHY breed wolf dogs? What purpose do they serve that a dog itself cannot accomplish?
I'm not bashing, I'm just curious as to WHAT the motivation is to breed and buy wolf dogs, outside of the 'coolness' factor.
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Post by Seijun on Sept 15, 2004 8:18:46 GMT -5
Because some people just like them and can't be satisfied with the temperment that comes with "average" dogs. Wolves form very strong social bonds and are much more "in tune" with pack hierarchy. You have to work MUCH harder to raise, train, socialize them, etc. There is sometimes so little room for error, but the curiousity and overal behaviors of a high content or mid F1 are so much more extreme than in dogs. I cannot stand the 'average' "I love you and will obey your every command" feeling I get from most dogs, I want something that I have to work hard with on an everyday basis and who will always be questioning my actions. A wolfdog isn't a dog you can just buy, take out to show friends every once in a while, feed, water, and play with a little everyday. When you get a wolfdog the comitment you make to it is so much greater than in other dogs (i.e.-socialization with a high content pup sometimes has to start as early as when the animal is only 10 days old). "Wolfdog" people just like that I guess. It is really a difficult question to answer. Sort of like asking an English Pointer owner why they don't have Short-Haired Pointers, because after all, each dog does pretty much the same thing.
~Seij
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Post by fetchingpixels on Jan 10, 2006 23:48:07 GMT -5
I don't think there needs to be wolf-dogs. They have no purpose other then companion animals, and that's what we domesicated the dog for right? It's obsense that somebody wants something closer to the 'wild'... If they wanted something with a wolf like appeareance out there, theres a few dog breeds to choose from.
I was doing some research on this. Some pro wolf dog people say that this isn't true, but I've found a couple stories where it came out to be true. I'm sure this doesn't happen very often but somepeople let their wolf dog out in the wild because they think that it's a wild animal, and can survive. And this is causing a big problems for natural full blood wolves because society is viewing them as a nuissance, and they are a threatened species as it is. Like I said I'm sure it doesn't happen to often but it is out there. I also found out about people taking their domesticated cats out in the wild and let them go free, I can't imagine what some people are thinking!
It sickens me that people out there make a buck off breeding wolves and dogs. They are a nuissance to society. They are the same animal sure but theres a big difference between being tame and wild. When you mix the two, you never know what you are going to get. Wolves need to be out making their contribution to the wild, and not banging domesticated dogs to make bucks for people.
My boyfriends friend had a wolfdog. He thought it would be cool to own one. He couldn't handle it... he eventually stopped going around it and it starved to death. I promise you if I would of known I would of called animal control or the poilice. my boyfriend told me after it happened because he knows I would of turned him in.
My concerns are people don't know what they are doing a lot of the times when they take on a wolf-dog, and they give them a really bad name. I see no purpose in society for them....infact I think it's taking a step backwards.
Ah theres Seijun her and I disagree a lot on this! I tried really hard to look at things from other perspectives, but I just have my own view on it, I'm sorry.
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Post by willow on Jan 15, 2006 13:13:52 GMT -5
Because some people just like them and can't be satisfied with the temperment that comes with "average" dogs. Wolves form very strong social bonds and are much more "in tune" with pack hierarchy. You have to work MUCH harder to raise, train, socialize them, etc. There is sometimes so little room for error, but the curiousity and overal behaviors of a high content or mid F1 are so much more extreme than in dogs. I cannot stand the 'average' "I love you and will obey your every command" feeling I get from most dogs, I want something that I have to work hard with on an everyday basis and who will always be questioning my actions. A wolfdog isn't a dog you can just buy, take out to show friends every once in a while, feed, water, and play with a little everyday. When you get a wolfdog the comitment you make to it is so much greater than in other dogs (i.e.-socialization with a high content pup sometimes has to start as early as when the animal is only 10 days old). "Wolfdog" people just like that I guess. It is really a difficult question to answer. Sort of like asking an English Pointer owner why they don't have Short-Haired Pointers, because after all, each dog does pretty much the same thing. ~Seij I am very much in love with pure wolves and have always felt they were misunderstood and certainly persecuted. They are beautiful, noble animals. This is why I would not be content with owning a mix of wolf and dog. This is just a watered down wolf. I would want to own a pure wolf, but no one "owns" a pure wolf, as in the sense of "owning" a dog or wolf mix, and I understand this, so as much as I would love to have one, I also know this would be the worse thing I could do to the wolf. Unfortunately, so many people don't care. They want them (wolf mixes) just because they are. I also feel people who are not content with dogs, because they are not "challenging" enough, and don't make you work hard enough, have highly inflated ego's or too much time on their hands. JMO ;D
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Post by Richard on Jan 15, 2006 20:35:49 GMT -5
I guess my thought would be, "what's next?".
Once the wolf-dog thing gets boring - which seems inevitable, would a person go looking for a full fledged wolf next? And if the wolf didn't cut it no more, then what would be next on the list?
Would it be fair to say that at one time or another, a person could finally be satisfied with thier choice or would the lure of ever increasing challenges keep them looking onto the next line of animal to conquer?
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Post by sibemom on Jan 16, 2006 9:22:39 GMT -5
I agree that if I wanted a "WOLF" that is what I would get. We have a friend who owns a small family zoo, in MI, and he has Wolves in his compound. Wolves are as Willow said gentle, noble creatures, and WILD. I had asked him his opinion on the subject of breeding HYBIRDS and he was VERY pointed in his veiws. He said that when you mix the to you are not getting the best of both you are getting the WORST of both. At one time even though in MI it is illegal to own a WOLF DOG, he had taken in a HYBRID because it was to be PTS. He was allowed to keep it becuase of being a Zoo. In a short time he ended up having it PTS, because it did not fit in to either world. The wolves would not accept it and neither would the dogs, it was like an OUTCAST. Sometimes it would act like a wolf but with an evil twist, and then again sometimes it would act like a dog with a MENTAL PROBLEM He did his best to aclimate it into the enviorment there but it did not work. He said it was the most unpredictable animal he has ever had, and he would trust the Grey Wolves ten times over this Hybrid. Working with Wild animals and living with them as he does everyday, he said that is is a CRIME AGAINST NATURE to mix a dog and a wolf because people get the wrong idea about the WOLF. They are not aggresive by nature they hunt and kill for food. They do not just attack for no reason unless the pack is being threatned. Hybrids on the other hand are almost like fighting demons in their heads because of the fact that they have wild tendencies without the instinct of the wolf to know when aggresion is appropriate.
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Post by willow on Jan 16, 2006 10:33:45 GMT -5
Yes, I agree with both of you, Richard and Sibemom.
Wolves in the wild are wonderful, beautiful creatures with a purpose. Hybrids in captivity are misfits and the only purpose they fulfill is stroking someone's ego or lining someone's pockets.
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Post by kaos on Jul 23, 2006 15:58:29 GMT -5
Oh my goodness, I don't think we have these yet in NZ and I personally haven't met one, but if they become the next 'cool thing' I can imagine it would be very bad news for everyone involved. I see plenty of Malamutes who are out of control, unhappy, underexercised, undertrained, undersocialised and struggling to cope with the heat during summer. Quite often it seems that experienced dog owners think through their purchase decisions carefully, and avoid breeds that they know won't suit their living conditions or lifestyle, but new or ignorant dog owners just pick something they like the look of or that has 'street cred' with no consideration to their care requirements or temperament.
One of my biggest concerns is how do they react to other dogs? Do they tend to be more dog aggressive?
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Post by Am on Jul 25, 2006 21:13:05 GMT -5
Kaos are you in NZ too? That's so cool.
No, we have no wolf dogs in NZ, not unless someone has snuck some low content wolf-dogs in somehow. MAF and HSNO would never allow anyone to import them openly.
They did allow a film company to temporarily import 10 wolves for filming the Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe last year, but MAF made them jump through hoops to do it. They didn't let them bring in the reindeer that they wanted to import for the film, just the wolves.
I don't really understand the point of keeping wolf-dog hybrids in suburbia, myself. If they act like wolves, then I would imagine they are too dangerous to be kept in suburbia. Or conversely, if they act just like dogs - then why not just keep a wolfish-looking dog?
Of course, if someone is prepared to keep exotic animals properly - by that I mean they are a qualified exotic animal keeper, will build a special rural enclosure, design appropriate environmental enrichers, employ enough staff to keep the animals safe and happy, and submit to regular inspections from the SPCA - then I think that's a different thing entirely. But not many people I know would be rich or committed enough to do that.
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Post by sibemom on Jul 27, 2006 8:03:55 GMT -5
The idea of purposly breeding Wolves and Dogs to get some HYBRID mix really angers me Wolves by nature ARE NOT AGGRESIVE CREATURES, they act purly on instinct. When you mix a domestic dog with a Wolf you are treading on waters filled with sharks. I have met a few, that were OK but the proportion of Wolf to Dog was rather low on the wolf side, but the one that scared the crap out of me was the one that was half and half. There was nothing wolf like or dog like about this poor tortured creature, AGRESSIVE TO THE MAX, and a misfit, because it would not have fit in either pack, not wolf nor dog. I just do not understand WHY this needs to be done. They are illegal here in Wisconsin to, but that does not stop people from getting them, and to the untrained eye you could pass them off as a Sibe. That is the other thing that angers me. When you hear of Siberian Huskie's biting or attacking people, I WOULD BET MONEY that they are not Sibe's but actually Wolves in Dog clothing.
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