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Post by prettylilpawz on Dec 3, 2004 16:41:02 GMT -5
Hello Everyone!! I'm new here and I am asking all kinds of forums to get some answers. Here's my problemS: I had adopted two sweet beagles. They are 4 years old and the sweetest, cuddliest and calmest dogs when in the house. When people come into our home they are very friendly and greet strangers like they are best friends. But as soon as I put the collar and leash on they are completely different dogs. . They are constant pullers and they hate strange dogs and strangers on the street. They bark uncontrollably and there is no way you can get theyre attention. The former owners told me that they were socialized as puppies and young adults but had a few bad experiences with aggressive dogs and she said they literally snapped one day. I've tried using treats to get theyre attention away from dogs and people but they only take a quick sniff and ignore me, can't use choke chains or pinch collars because they are constantly pulling there is no room for a pop and release. They already have damage to their trachea I think because of the pulling. Currently I'm using a harness but that just gives them an excuse to pull like sled dogs. I've tried doing the backyard heeling with treats and they just jump all around and get excited. I'm at my wits end, I really need to resocialize these dogs so they stop barking at other dogs and strangers on the street. PLEEEEEEEZE HELP
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Post by sibemom on Dec 3, 2004 18:38:09 GMT -5
Well I see by your post you are trying. This is what I would try with them. I would buy a prong collar for both, and start using it NOW As far as the dog on dog problem well that has to be handled carefully. Because they have had bad experiences you must slowley start showing them that other dogs or OK. You do this slowly. I would start by finding someone who you know has a dog that is a rock solid freindly pup. Take them at a distance by the dog and if they start getting sassy, correct them. Little by little get closer but correct them with a pop on the collar and LEAVE IT. Your dogs might never be extremly comfortable around other dogs because of what happned to them but they are still fairly young, so you can manage this behavior. They need to know that if you say it's ok then it is and that no form of aggresion will be tolerated. Beagles as a rule are snappy sassy little dogs with wonderful dispositions, and they are very vocal With patients and consistant training you should be able to get through this. Keep asking questions we will all help as much as we can ;D The pinch collar is not going to damage their throats and if you use it correctly there is no way they are going to pull through it. You are right about the harness because that encourages a dog to pull. If you still feel uncomfortable about the pinch collar, then they do have some anti pulling harnesses out there. I have never used on and no I am not talking about a gentle leader or Halti. These are harnesses specificly designed to stop pulling. Think about the pinch collar I really thing if used correctly it will solve your problem. ;D
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Post by prettylilpawz on Dec 3, 2004 23:09:41 GMT -5
Thank you soo much for your reply. I am still a little weary about using the prong collar, not cuz it looks so terrible, but because I don't know if i can give them enough lead to give them a correction. The biggest problem is when I open the door they are at a constant pull, and the leash is constantly tight. I'm afraid the prong collar would be constantly pinching my dogs necks, and that wouldn't really be getting any kind of correction. I also want to know, does the prong collar make them yelp an stuff? don't know if i'd have the heart to do that. I mean I grab them by the scruff sometimes when they are REALLY bad, but they don't really yelp. And the prongs look kinda sharp.......would it ever pierce skin if the dog lunges fast enough? I was also thinking....As I'm trying to socialize them, is it good to correct them at the same time? wouldn't that give them even more bad associations? Oh it's so many hard decisions to make. I checked with the obedience schools in my area and they don't allow aggressive or unsocialized older dogs in their classes. I would need to have private lessons and it can get very expensive, especially for two dogs at the same time. I'm gonna hold off on the pinch collar till after xmas. If anybody has any ideas on how to safely socialize them in a positive way please let me know. and if that doesn't work than I will have to use the prong.
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Post by sibemom on Dec 4, 2004 8:02:19 GMT -5
I dont think these dogs are going to pull once you put that collar on and if you use the small size pinch. You do not need a lot of lead to give the correction. Yes they might yelp but in the beggining they will actually be correcting themselves. I know it is hard to hear them yelp but you must understand that what you are doing is not cruel it is for their own good and a few yipes out of them is better than the constant aggresion shown to other dogs. I think private lessons would be great for you and your dogs. ;D Using only a flat collar will do more damage to them than a pinch and a check chain is not a good idea either with them being such intense pullers. If you try to socialize them with no real good training tool in place it might turn out to be VERY BAD. E collar would be my other suggestion but only after they understand what is expected. I know you are frustrated but you gotta hang tough. You can try loose leash techniques which is turning abruptly in the other direction when they are pulling and then when they get back to the heel position praise them and give a treat keep this up untill they stop their pulling but even then straining on a flat or choke collar can do damage to the their throats much quicker.
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Post by Willow on Dec 4, 2004 10:08:50 GMT -5
Sibemom is correct. Put pinch collars on them, take them out one at a time and when they pull, turn and RUN in the opposite direction. By doing this, even though the leash is tight, they will get a good correction and one or two of these and they will quit pulling.
If you don't turn and run in the opposite direction, they will just pull against the pinch collar. My neighbors dog does it all the time so what is the use of putting a pinch on them?
Once you have their attention and they no longer pull, you can begin to address the aggression.
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Post by Nicole on Dec 4, 2004 10:17:18 GMT -5
I also think there is a leadership issue here and that these dogs do not respect you. Read this thread dogden.proboards21.com/index.cgi?board=Questions&action=display&thread=1079736429and institute strict NILIF. Once you have convinced these dogs that you are worthy of respect and they have gained some confidence that you will decide who is and is not a threat you may have an easier time dealing with the aggression. For now I would teach them obedience seperately (which also builds a bond with you and confidence) and work them seperately at a distance from the object that is eliciting the aggressive/fearful response. Very slowly move closer when you have achieved a calmness at a particular distance. If they are reacting you have moved too fast and you need to back up. Do not just confront a dog or person right now. They can't handle it yet.
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Post by prettylilpawz on Dec 4, 2004 11:51:47 GMT -5
Thank you for your replies everyone, it's very helpful. I have been doing some of the NILIF excersizes like making them sit or lay down when they want to play or before I feed them, and making them sit and wait before I let them jump on the couch or bed, and also sending them to their bed. I will also look into getting a pinch collar after xmas. Last night when my boyfriend and I took them for a walk they freaked out and barked at people who were walking on the other side of the street.....but after we passed by someone on our side of the street and they walked passed him all calm and friendly. They just walked past him, sniffed him and kept walking what does that mean??? Do you think they are barking agressively because they are over excited and want to approach the people that are far away??? Or just trying to get theyre attention?? I was so confuzed, why would they bark excessively at people and dogs so far away and have no reaction whatsoever when they pass right by?
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Post by Nicole on Dec 4, 2004 12:27:30 GMT -5
What type of bark is it. Excitement barking is fast and higher pitched. It may be that they have the courage to bark at distance objects and show their stuff like a dog who barks ferociously on the other side of the window. Open the window and give whatever is on the other side access and the dog more likely than not will act "normal". Does that make sense.
That is good that the dog was so calm close by. It leads me to believe that this may be more of a dominant "I am tuff stuff" issue than a fear issue which is much easier to fix and manage (referring to the dominance issue). Be serious about the NILIF and for now do not allow the dogs on the couch and bed. They need to be knocked down a bunch of notches so that they will respect and listen to you when you say quiet..no barking..etc.!!
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Post by Nicole on Dec 4, 2004 12:56:07 GMT -5
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Post by Iluvmypup on Dec 4, 2004 20:27:31 GMT -5
As everyone here on RB already knows, I don't advise anyone to use a prong collar. It has its drawbacks, such as you having to correct at the exact right time. For example, if your dog began to bark, and you were to pop the leash, how does the dog know what he's being corrected for? Is it for looking at something, taking a quick pause in the barking (which would actually make the problem even WORSE then before)....and so on. HOWEVER, I can't decide for you whats best for you and your dog. But I did notice you saying two things which caught my attention. (1) You mentioned the dogs yelping if they were to have a prong...just one of the reasons I'll never put any of my dogs into a prong. Training should be fun for dog and owner, but whats the fun in that? And (2) You mentioned the prongs being sharp. If I understand correctly, they should be ball tipped, or at least blunt. I went to Petco once and checked out the prongs for the fun of it, and felt it. It was SHARP, and could definatley pierce skin. Those shouldn't be selected if you do decide to use one...someone correct me if I'm wrong. ;D I'll pm you with some ideas on training these pups, as this post is becoming too long...
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Post by Nicole on Dec 4, 2004 21:37:04 GMT -5
Oh come on Luv. Geesh. We have had this discussion about the prong 1000 times already. Don't buy your prong at petsmart or petco. They are inferior. And a yelp isn't going to kill the dog. The yelping is from being startled and yes there is a bit of discomfort. But one yelp and the pulling problem is usually solved. The end of story!! And yes TEACHING should be fun. But proofing ensures a safe and alive dog. One that will come when called, will obey, won't run into traffic and won't bite someone. You have to proof with corrections to have reliability. The level of correction depends upon the dog. And when to correct is timing. It isn't rocket science. The same timing that you use with the clicker Luv. And why are you Pming advice. Tell us too so we can agree or disagree and others can possibly learn. We are all open to your training advice Luv. I think you know that by now. But trashing the prong... well we have been through this time and time again and you have yet to tell us how you master reliability or how you deal with an aggressive dog.
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Post by sibemom on Dec 4, 2004 21:42:58 GMT -5
Yes I know Nicki it is hard to convince people that the prong collar is a safe humane and reliable tool. I too want to find out what advice you gave Luv because every now and then I do run into a dog that would do better with a softer touch. ;D I REALLY want to know how you are getting along with that little HUSKY pup of yours without a prong. ;D You know us well enough by know that you can trust us not to jump you, we just really want to know how you get reliable results without using it. ;D
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Post by Brooke on Dec 5, 2004 13:27:35 GMT -5
A pinch collar is one of the safest (while monitored), and less stressful collars on the trachea you can buy. A pinch collar, because of your dog's trachea damage is going to actually be the best collar you can use on them. You'll be using a lot less pressure as a whole around the neck and they aren't going to be pulling much on a pinch to begin with. Infact you don't need any real give in the lead to offer a correction. When they do get ahead, anytime there is any tension in the lead, you just quickly turn and walk a few fast paces in the other direction. I've seen a lot longer posts around here than that luv. If you are confident in your advice... which you are... then there is no reason it should be given in private.
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Post by amyjo on Dec 5, 2004 14:30:39 GMT -5
Personally I find it absurd that humans put so much emphasis and assign so much weight to the meaning of a correction in the life of a dog.
Dogs do it to each other all the time. It works - period. Its not a big deal and the dog "gets it" immeadiately...Then it is over and done with. DOgs don't hold grudges and they are not traumatized by corrections that are measured to their temperments and/ or current distraction levels.
FURTHER... A dog knows what he is being corrected for the same way he knows what he is being rewarded for. That is another argument that holds no water and is not based in fact, but the emotional/anthropomorphic position that corrections are damaging. Many of us use a marker like "hey" or "no" when the correction itself cannot be perfectly timed ( just like rewards in clicker training).
Finally I would just like to say that it is ridiculous for humans to put up with all manner of poor leash behavior and painful pulling on the hands and arm when it is easly mananaged. There is no room for martyrdom in dog training - particularly when the dog is a danger to himself or others. You just don't have to put up with it.
I am all for the prong collar for all the reasons stated in the posts above and also because it provides a consequesce for pulling and lunging and allows the dog to make the decision whether or not it will receive the correction.
I have also used "inferior" collars from Petsmart and while they aren't as nice as a Hern... I have never poked a hole in any dog. Dogs have fur and loose skin and it simply doesn't happen. It would require tremendous force or other serious misuse in order to do so.
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Post by Aussienot on Dec 5, 2004 20:44:07 GMT -5
Training with the pinch/prong collar can be fun and motivational. Finn wags his tail and gets his 'delighted look' on whenever the prong comes out. Why? Because he associates the prong with going out and doing fun stuff together - fun stuff we couldn't do when he was pulling at the leash and going psycho around other dogs.
Have I ever corrected him with the prong? Yes. Did I need to do it often or hard? No. Did it correct the problem? Yes. I can't even remember the last time I needed to correct him. Did it kill his enthusiam? No.
The beauty of the pinch/prong is that the dog understands the correction. One well timed correction coupled with reward for compliance is often enough to cure the problem of pulling for many dogs. The pinch is not the answer to all questions, but it's a very good answer for the pulling question.
Of course you need timing, and some skill. All training techniques require timing and some skill (click click) And hands up everyone who has seen dogs in a flat collar and/or a head halter yelp.
I have done it both ways, so I can speak from experience that pinch is the kindest and easiest way to go for this problem.
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