BeTrue
Trained
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Posts: 217
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Post by BeTrue on Dec 6, 2004 13:33:31 GMT -5
I'm sorry if I'm changing the topic, but I have a question. A lady down the street has a huge dog that looks like a mastiff mix and she always walks him on a prong. He's the greatest dog, walks nicely by her side, and so on. Is a prong required all the time after the dog has been trained on it, or can it be weaned off and can the dog eventually walk on a flat collar again?
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Post by sibemom on Dec 6, 2004 18:15:13 GMT -5
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BeTrue
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Posts: 217
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Post by BeTrue on Dec 6, 2004 19:10:41 GMT -5
Thanks for the info...I was afraid to ask, after looking at all the past articles on prongs and such since it seems like such a frequent (and maybe touchy) topic. Thats great your going for the CGC with Blade!! I went for it with the service dog I was training and was so nerve-racked when I first went in. He was a completely different dog though. I hadn't even taught him heel yet (talk about going unprepared... ;D) and he walked perfectly by my side like the good boy he was. I'm sure you and Blade will do awesome. Is he one of the dogs in your avatar?
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Post by sibemom on Dec 6, 2004 19:46:57 GMT -5
Yes Blade is my Sibe ;D He is also used for Therapy visits even though he is not certified yet as a Therapy dog, but that will come ;D I have also trained him to do some service dog tasks just to see if a Husky would be a suitable breed for this type of work. Yes I was dissapointed that we could not make the test date in October, but there is no rush Willow my GSD will test for hers at the same time HOPEFULLY
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Post by prettylilpawz on Dec 7, 2004 2:05:11 GMT -5
WOW, this post IS getting REALLY long, and quite heated. It might have to be moved to the debate forum . I didn't know this would create this much controversy. On a funny note...I just asked my Rusty if he wanted a pinch collar and he looked at me like this LOL. Almost looked like he knew what I was talking about Anywayz...I think I might not have been really clear about my question. I was asking about ways I can try to desensitize or rather socialize these dogs without further traumatizing them. Not to say that the pinch is traumatizing but I just feel they(my dogs) are not emotionally ready. I went to the Leerburg site and he gave quite a few responses that seemed rather severe to the circumstances. He had told one lady whose dog was afraid to leave the driveway to slap a prong on the thing and drag it down the street . He had told another man who's dog had a growling problem, to kick it in the head if needed . I didn't take this all to heart, I just expanded my research to other trainers sites who also use the prong, and most of them (unlike Leerburg) don't suggest every dog should use the prong. And even went on to say that prongs should mainly be used on emotionally stable dogs, not fearful or unsocialized dogs because it COULD create more problems. They also said that they don't use prongs on fearful dogs because it COULD cause fear-aggression in dogs that did not display aggression before. I say COULD because it is not always the case as with many dogs on this site who seem fine, but you are taking that chance and in the hands of someone who really is not an expert, I don't want to take unnecessary risks. Another site had said that while the prong collar works wonders for most dogs, and they use prongs on many of their dogs, in most cases it's unecessary. But they continue to state that any trainer would have to meet with you and your dog to assess whether or not a prong is needed, or what methods would best suit your dogs personality. So, I guess a good trainer would have the nessesary tools for every type of dog. Which is why I am doing as much research as I can to inform myself. Almost everyone here advises me to use the prong except a few who advise using clicker/positive training methods. I am trying to take in both sides to make my training experience really well rounded. I know many of you won't agree......but I am trying the gentle leader at first (not as a training tool) but rather a way I can get my dogs out there and see other dogs and people at a distance. I think they need to get used to the whole walking idea, it seems to be a brand new thing to them. If the gentle leader doesn't work than either we have to try something different like a prong, or get a personal trainer. I had already bought the gentle leaders the day I made my first post so I'm not going to return them, I'm gonna give it my best shot. Thanx all, I'll keep ya posted
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Post by Nicole on Dec 7, 2004 17:58:28 GMT -5
...I was afraid to ask, after looking at all the past articles on prongs and such since it seems like such a frequent (and maybe touchy) topic. Please don’t be afraid to ask any question. That is not what this board is about. It isn’t so much a "touchy" subject and this isn’t really a “heated debate” at all. We have already had the heated debate. Go look at the old threads. We have had this go round with Luv (who we all like and respect) many, many times before and no matter how much we debate the issue, she doesn’t understand what we are saying. That having been said, the prong is not a training method. It is a training tool to be incorporated into your training method if it is necessary with the particular dog that you are training. If you read through this board you will see that we do not believe in a one size fits all training regimen or one size fits all training tool. But I think that we all do agree that there reaches a point in training after you have taught your dog the commands motivationally and he understands and knows the commands under distractions that disobedience brings a consequence whether that be a NO a HEY a stern look or a prong correction. I can lift my eye and my dog stops what he is doing. But, if the dog is still disobeying with a NO, the correction must be made more motivational. The correction has to be more motivational than the desire to engage in the behavior. This is how you achieve reliability. Reliability means that the dog will comply 100% of the time under severe distraction. If there is a dog on the other side of the road and you say come and the dog runs to the other side of the street, the dog is dead. Period. And I think most of us here agree that we do not want to train our dogs for six years to get a well behaved and well mannered dog that can live in our home and in society. Anyway, to answer your question, my guess is that the lady’s rottie is collar smart and she doesn’t feel comfortable or in control walking the dog with a regular collar. It is likely more her issue than the dogs. The goal with the prong is to not allow the dog to become collar smart. If it is used situationally...let us say only for pulling..it should be put on at least 2 weeks before any correction is delivered and left on for at least two weeks after the last correction. If it is used to proof all behaviors it should be on whenever you are interacting with the dog, not just when you want to correct him. Prettylillpawz, you have to evaluate your dogs and determine what level of correction suits them best. I am not opposed to desensitization for fearful behavior and I believe that is what I suggested. But it would help if you first got the pulling under control before you start the process. They are ignoring you now, so obviously, they have not learned what you are saying to them or what you want them to do. Teach them not to pull, to be quiet..to sit.. to ignore.. First in a distraction free environment and then slowly with disractions. At this point with dogs that are not socialized, they need alternate rules to follow to relieve the stress. Also keep in mind that dogs love structure, they love to know that you are in charge and that there are rules and that they can just relax and follow them. This builds confidence. So no matter what you do, you have to be a leader because unless you are, any type of training is not going to solve your problems. The gentle leader is not a training tool, it is a restraint. It will not teach the dog not to pull. It prevents the dog from pulling. It can damage the spine, if the dogs lunges hard because the neck is unsupported. I just wanted you to understand that. I personally would put a muzzle on my dog before I used a gentle leader if I was concerned about aggression. Good luck and keep us posted.
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Post by Brooke on Dec 7, 2004 23:04:58 GMT -5
Please don’t be afraid to ask any question. That is not what this board is about. It isn’t so much a "touchy" subject and this isn’t really a “heated debate” at all. Thank you Nicki... I about fell out of my chair there... PLEASE don't EVER feel afraid to ask a question here. The only dumb question is the one not asked or has to do with pencil thin rawhides...(nevermind... that was a joke). You aren't asking for just yourself... you're asking for a lot of people out there reading. Only one thing betrue... I'd probably start a new thread on a new question... but no biggie
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Post by prettylilpawz on Dec 8, 2004 16:02:18 GMT -5
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BeTrue
Trained
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Posts: 217
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Post by BeTrue on Dec 8, 2004 16:24:25 GMT -5
Perhaps its only certain dogs that 'set him off'? I know my lab had some issues with meeting german shepherds, because of some bad experiences. On the other hand, he LOVED greyhounds, and other labs. And then, dogs can always read body language much better then us. Sometimes leashed dogs can 'set a dog off' as well (and then sometimes its the other way around, and a dog can get uncomfortable when theres an off-leash dog around). When they pull against the leash, it can lift their front paws off the ground, making themselves appear larger and more intimidating to the other dog. Just a few points to consider. Anyways, its great that he has good experiences like that. Maybe you could have some more get-togethers like that to boost your dog's confidence level. Do they (your two beagles) react differently when they're together then when they're alone? Since your training with the gentle leader, you might want to check out this book: www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0764112368/qid=1102537196/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/002-3629852-2760846?v=glance&s=booksI'm not sure how good it is, so I can't recommend it, but it might be worth checking out. I find that even if you don't agree with a certain training method, you can always learn one or two things from other trainers and methods.
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Post by Kona on Dec 8, 2004 16:56:46 GMT -5
BeTrue - thanks for mentioning that book! I'm addining it to my wish list. I didn't realize that there was a book specifically about head halters. I have a couple of rants about them, but I guess I should put those somewhere else on the forum. This thread is getting crazy.
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Post by prettylilpawz on Dec 9, 2004 1:01:07 GMT -5
AWWWWW MAN!!!! I typed a whole post and when I added smileys I lost it.....so here I go again Thank you BeTrue for the link to the book I really appreciate it. I wish I seen it earlier since I just ordered a bunch of books from there for xmas and such. Regarding the "how do they react when seperated" thing goes.....well not well at all. They were raised together since they were puppies and don't think they were apart at all. They seem completely co-dependent. Awhile ago I had to take Rusty to the vet for minor Colitis and I left Turbo at home with my brother and he told me that Turbo was running around yelping and crying like crazy, and Rusty was whining the whole way to the vet and back. They don't even like to be in seperate rooms. They do almost everything together, including sleep. But this is a completely different topic and post altogether. And..this post is getting way too long. I want to thank everyone for your advice and when I get somewhere with them I will sure to start a new thread and let you guys know. ;D
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Post by Willow on Dec 9, 2004 10:10:35 GMT -5
First of all, you are experiencing a "pitfall" of owning littermates. It just never works unless they are seperated and trained seperately. It is clear here that your beagles are bonded to each other and not to you. Secondly, it is obvious that they are totally out of control.
You have gotten excellent advise from Nicki, Ann, Amyjo, Aussie and Brooke, who have wonderfully trained, happy dogs btw.
You can train the "watch me" all you want, but unless your dogs are corrected for their bad behavior, when the chips are down, they will ignore you.
It never ceases to amaze me how people will do anything and spend tons of $$$$ on useless training tools, when a couple of well timed corrections with a pinch collar will stop the behavior!
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Post by sibemom on Dec 9, 2004 10:19:51 GMT -5
Good post Loey ;D In this case I think to much HUMAN emotion is being put into the dogs. The simple fact is would I let my child behave in the manner that these dogs are? NO, so why would I not incorporate a good diciplinary plan to correct the bad behavior. I guess when I read that "The dogs were not emotionaly ready" I had to giggle, not be disrespectful but giggle. Dogs are ready for ANY good training plan when implemented, and yes they may have fear, anxiety, or aggresion issues but that is where the training tools and good fundemental training regimine comes in. We humans put way to many of our own emotions and feelings into our pets. Of course dogs have feelings but not in the same sense as we do. All they are looking for is a strong leader to follow just like in the wild. So once YOU get tougher and stand tall, the dogs are going to follow. You also have to teach them that being with you is alot better than being with each other ;D
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Post by Willow on Dec 9, 2004 10:32:41 GMT -5
I also went and checked out the book on the head halter, and as usual, the author is comparing "apples to oranges", in her comparison of the horse and dog! What she says simply isn't true and is ridiculous!
Common sense alone should tell someone that you simply cannot "control" a 1000# horse by the neck, because of their size, strength and flexability of their neck muscles. To compare a dogs neck to a horses neck is ludicrous!
For one thing, a horses neck is much longer than a dogs and has the ability to "flex" more. In horse training, good trainer's build on this flexability by "flexing" a horses neck, thereby making it more "flexable", so it can be completely brought around to the side.
If a horse tries to get away while wearing a halter/lead, you can control them by pulling their neck around to their side and making them go in circles. Seldom will this cause injury, even if they hit the end of the lead going at full tilt.
Go ahead and try that, or let that happen to your dog while wearing a halter, and see what happens.
This never ceases to amaze me either. People who condemn the use of a pinch collar, condone the use of head halters, which have a much higher possibility of causing serious damage/death than a pinch collar.
Obviously they do not understand the anatomy of the dog. If they did, they wouldn't use/recommend them.
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Post by sibemom on Dec 9, 2004 10:36:26 GMT -5
You go girl ;D
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