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Post by amyjo on Sept 30, 2004 8:17:14 GMT -5
Many of you remember the Tbone incident and the big hole in my arm.
Well we have had another incident and I really need some thoughts on the matter. I believe his owners are at their wits end and he might be close to being PTS.
Last night I was in a neighbors front yard with Gracie and Easton (yes, Gracie - long story) any way...Tbones house is directly accross the street. I could hear him going ape sh*t at the glass storm door - but I thought his Mom was home and it was locked as usual. She works at home and I thought she was in her office - I was suprised that she wasn't doing anything about it but I thought she might be stuck on the phone with a client or something - so I decided to take the dogs in rather than continue to torment him.
Well...she had stepped out and was visiting another neighbor. She left the door un- locked. As we turned, he busted out and came charging accross the street like a freight train - hackles up, ears flat and teeth barred.
I had a split second to make a decision. I have faced situations like this before and I know better than to run - but I have a history with this dog and a scar to remember it by so I reacted out of fear rather than a place of knowlege.
I was convinced he was going to hit us and hit us hard. I was sure that at least one of the dogs would be hurt as would I. It was like a forgone conclusion in my mind. I figured the best chance I had was to be as close to my front door when it happened so that my husband could get to us faster.
I started yelling for Clarke and running towards my own house. Easton was in front of me, Gracie behind. He hit her first and that sweet little girl reared up on her hind legs and began to fight him. She gave me my courage back and I squared my shoulders and started stomping as I walked into him calling him every name in the book in a lound growly voice. Between Gracie and I, we faced him down and he turned and ran home.
Clarke came out and I handed Gracie and Easton off to him and I followed Tbone home stomping at him and telling him off. Well he went straight to his front door at sat down.
I stayed about 20 ft from the front door (because he is territorial) and called for his owner - she never came out. I didn't know what to do - I was afraid someone would come along with a dog and the whole thing would happen again. So I ignored him and just walked straight into the house. He followed me in and I told him to go to his crate and he did!
I finally found her in the other neighbors house. She is very sorry and understandably very upset. Gracie was not hurt.
I am interested in some analysis about this dog's behavior. Is there hope for him? My sense of him is he is dominant (because no one else is, not because he was born to it) as well as fearful. He is territorial of his home and his people because of this anxiety. I feel like there is hope because he did back down but I think he needs owners that are tough as nails so that he doesn't have to feel like he needs to protect every one and every thing. I am interested in other thoughts and would like to know what you would try if this were your dog.
Amy
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Post by Richard on Sept 30, 2004 8:46:48 GMT -5
Two things jump out at me right away about this incident:
1. Tbones current owners are not strong enough to handle him...the simple fact that you stood up to him and got him back in his crate with no further issues or attitude proves that. They're trying to baby a dog that needs a firm hand and strong leadership.
2. The fact that Tbones was in his own house going nuts at dogs that were across the street shows that he's not only territorial but just plain aggressive towards any dog within his field of view. He's lucky a car wasn't coming by and plastered him on the road when he charged you guys.
The options for Tbones are not many...it's sad to say but given the current situation regarding dogs/dog attacks down there and up here, there would be little reason not to put him to sleep. Unless another owner could be found that can handle his temperment and give him the leadership he needs, this isn't going to be a happy ending.
While your neighbors intentions were good about getting a rescue dog, I don't think this match was a good one. Unfortunately, like most things these days, if something doesn't work out, people just toss it away...sad that Tbones falls into this catagory (as do a lot of dogs in his position). Ending up with a fate they don't deserve because someone never took the time to train them. Tbones is a product of ignorant ownership (his first owners who obvioulsy didn't care) and then ending up with people who can't rise to the challenges he presents - throw into the mix: poor breeding, inbreeding, physical/mental problems ect ect... and the situation just gets more bleak. Once again, the simple act of you standing up, using a firm voice and with no hesitation, Tbones going back inside to his crate, shows that he needs this kind of owner....he is definitely not a "first timer" dog owner type of dog.
You could compare this scenario with rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic....after a while, it really doesn't make a difference. If someone wishes to frill this up and make it seem not as bad, fine, but lets be honest, this dog isn't in the right home and the next time he gets out (if it happens) it may not be Amyjo and Gracie stepping up to the plate to get him under control.
-Richard
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Post by Nicole on Sept 30, 2004 15:52:06 GMT -5
Wow Amyjo!! You did a great job and I am so glad that noone was hurt. That must have been scary as hell. I agree completely with Richard. I don't think this dog is a lost cause but I do think that he is a lost cause in his present home. We tried to give them advice after the dog bit you and the fact that you say they still baby the dog and based upon this latest incident leads me to believe that they did not hear a single thing that we said. This dog thinks that he is the protector and leader of this family and he is aggressive. I don't think this is fear at all. And if it is territorial he has expanded his boundries beyond his physical home which does happen. I think the aggression stems largely from his perceived place at the top and as protector with an expanded view of his territory. He needs more than just NILIF. He needs to be with someone who is going to devote a significant amount of time knocking this dog on his ass (speaking figuratively) until he realizes that he is at the bottom and also that aggression to people and animals will never be tolerated. Obviously someone who isn't going to approach this problem with a clicker and a treat. The question is can a proper home with willing and capable owners be found for this dog. I fear that with his present owners he is going to seriously hurt someone.
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Post by ripley on Sept 30, 2004 16:51:24 GMT -5
The only thing I have to add to the previous posts is, could it be possible that Tbone's owners just don't KNOW what they need to act like with their dog? Even though I always have more faith in the dog itself than its owners, these people might not be a lost cause either. AmyJo, I don't know the whole story on T-bone and his owners, but have you tried to show them little things that could help them? (A prong collar, a stern voice and the most hardcore NILIF you can imagine?) If they are the stubborn, ignorant type who doesn't take advice on how to manage their dog, then I would say it is either find a new, more experienced home, or have T-Bone PTS. A dog like that with the wrong owners is just too dangerous.. I think this dog DOES have anxiety issues, but I don't think that he protects his people and territory obsessively because he is anxious. I believe he is anxious because he has this huge 'job'. He probably sees himself as pack leader, which is a stressful thing on some dogs. Still, this is very serious and a bit of OB training and making him sit before he exits the door is NOT the answer. If these people aren't willing to commit to LOTS of training, and if they won't remain consistent as the leader of their pack, then this dog is best off in another home.
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Post by amyjo on Sept 30, 2004 17:04:07 GMT -5
Yep I agree with most of what has been said and RG you are very astute - I did have that a bit inside out - didn't I? They have done a bunch of work with NILIF and he has come a long way. He won't even approach his food bowl till he gets an "okay" He has also been trained to lay down by the door when ever someone comes to the door and waits for He really has come a very long way but I think they are lacking in confidence which is tranmitted to him and in exercise and exposure to other dogs (in other words he has not been required to be calm and obediant within range of other dogs). Nicole you are right - "afraid" might not be the right word - lets call it "not confident" Once when I was out walking with one of his owners - I saw him cry, whine and get all shaky and slobbery when we saw some other dogs a way off. It was very strange. I am sure he would have tried to beat them up if they were closer.
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Post by ripley on Sept 30, 2004 17:15:41 GMT -5
I know exactly what this dog needs.. A JOB. He wants one so badly that he's self-assigned the job of guarding every single little thing.
How about agility? Tracking? Frisbee? Advanced Obedience? ANYTHING that he will understand as 'his' job. I don't think they've defined anything for him.
What breed (s) is he, btw?
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Post by Nicole on Sept 30, 2004 17:46:17 GMT -5
I saw him cry, whine and get all shaky and slobbery when we saw some other dogs a way off. It was very strange. I am sure he would have tried to beat them up if they were closer. I am not so sure this is evidence of a lack of confidence. Reign acted that way (whining, crying, shaky and slobbery) once when he got a smell of heat drippings (sorry ) at the vet from a dog in the room before him. He loves the vet and has never behaved that way any other time. It is frustration...and in TBones case, very possibly a reaction due to the inability to reach the other dog.
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Post by sibemom on Sept 30, 2004 18:12:16 GMT -5
WOW I am sooo very impressed with you and GRACIE ;D My opinion on this is to Put Him to Sleep. I know it sounds cold but I just don't think his owners are going to measure up to what he needs, and even if they did it might not completly solve Tbones problems. I guess I am a person who only allows just so many chances and then I start thinking of the saftey of everyone, and not the love I have for my dog. If any of my dogs would ever do what Tbone has there would be a few chances and then if I could not fix it, I would sadly send them to bridge where they could do no harm. I don't know with all the very good dogs out there why keep this poor dog alive when someday he could do more damage then what he did to you awhile ago and just now. Nope I would PTS, but that's me and MHO.
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Post by Willow on Sept 30, 2004 19:05:34 GMT -5
Wow, Amyjo! I got so scarred just reading your post! That is terrible. I have to say that I agree 100% with Nicki's assessment of TBone, and I also agree 100% with Ann. This dog is extremely dangerous. I think its only a matter of time until he does another dog or person serious harm. And give that Gracie a big hug and kiss from Kerra and I. I know my little Kerra girl would do the same thing in that situation. I am so glad she wasn't hurt, but the next dog may not be so fortunate, because it may not have YOU there to help it out.
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Post by Aussienot on Sept 30, 2004 19:32:15 GMT -5
I don't know Tbone well enough to rule out re-homeing as an option before PTS. He may be fundametally flawed, or he could respond well to a serious and constant reality check.
I do think his owners are not up to managing his needs. Either they don't believe the information they've been offered, or they don't have the skills, or they don't want to do that much work, or it doesn't mesh with their ideal of how to interact with the family dog.
Either way, the owner/dog match appears wrong and things can't keep going the way they are. Something's gotta change.
So do tell all about Gracie the Wonder Dog. It appears she wants to keep you?
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Post by Laura on Sept 30, 2004 22:10:25 GMT -5
Amyjo, the sheer fact that you got the dog back into the house and into a crate tells me that he's "too much dog" for the owners. A truly aggressive animal would have gone after you, all bets off. I'd try and get him out of that home before he does some real damage. He needs a very dog savvy person to take control back from him, otherwise I think his aggression is going to be more anxiety propelled, the longer he's left in the position of alpha. He's a boy doing a man's job, and the strain will make him worse. And man, may I say what a brassy pair of cojones you and Miss Gracie Good Girl have ;D? It takes some serious nerve to face off with a dog like that, especially since he's already had a taste of you already !
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Post by Brooke on Sept 30, 2004 23:34:08 GMT -5
Sounds about right to me. I think the owners intentions bigger than their abilities here. It sounds like it's time to consider finding him a home thats a little more consistant in the leadership area. As my boss always says.... you got some Paul Bunyon balls girlie ;D You rock! ;D You better start a thread about Gracie... it must be kismet
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Post by Rowan on Oct 9, 2004 10:44:45 GMT -5
HUGE KUDO's for yall on handling it. That is a situation I wouldn't want to happen once less the thought you live in the environment where it is a part of life you have to look over your shoulder.. If there is or was any chance for this dog being turned around it is slowly slipping away each time the dog jumps another dog. Is just reinforceing him and he will get better and better at it, getting closer to a more dangerious/fatal level for other dogs and people. He learns from every experience. The owners need to start thinking ,,,,, Law suit, loosing their home, loosing everything. Owners need professional training !!!!!! I think the dog would follow along just fine. If the owners are not willing to get serious help, then the dog has only two choices. Bring him back to the rescue group for re training and re homing, or to PTS. Enrages me the owners hid behind "I'm sorry, and wasted emotions of regret" NO RESPECT OR TRUE COMPASSION for you and the little ones you love. "" its alright you and others live in fear every moment of your lives, but it's ok cause he really is a sweet dog"" give me a break...... If you can find the dog laws and punishments and fines concerning dog attacks for your local area I would show them to these people. When I had to write up a troop for poor behavior I would always include the penalties of what continuing on this path of behavior could and would lead to... Always an eye opener to say the least.. Not all neighbors are as tolerent as you... Keep yall in our thoughts....
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Post by Willow on Oct 10, 2004 13:38:08 GMT -5
I was recently reading that back in Biblical times, if someone had a bull they knew was dangerous and capable of attacking/killing a human and the owner's did nothing about it until that did happen, the bull and the owner was stoned to death.
Pretty extreme? Hmmmmmmm....sometimes I wonder!
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Post by amyjo on Oct 11, 2004 21:44:36 GMT -5
Sorry guys I haven't been around more. I have been really really busy and I haven't had a chance to catch up on the other posts, but I did want to update folks on this. I appreciated all the insight on this incident and the one before.
Here is a current update. They have contacted a behaviorist who has switched tbone to a gentle leader and the other dog to some kind of harness. She is giving the dog salami for paying attention to her in the presence of other dogs and she is tightening up on the gentle leader (kinda smushing his face and tweaking his neck) if he tries to lunge.
I marched around him with Elvis and then Gracie in order to help her out. But when she wasn't feeding him he was staring at us like he wanted to eat us. I didn't feel very safe and I doubt I will do it again.
I also don't think the GL is safe for a dog with his power(for himself or others) but this is out of my sphere of influence.
She has also suggested a thyroid test and they have had it done (finally)...
I am kind of frustrated because I don't think this kind of training will do anything about the fact that he thinks he is dominant and won't fix the underlying relationship issue. It is like they are trying to fix the symptom (dog aggression) not the problem (the dog thinks he is in charge and has to protect them and the house.)
Even though I think this is all wrong - I am glad they are at least doing SOMETHING and I am especially encouraged by the thyroid test. While I have grave doubts - I hope it works. I will be the first to eat my words if it does.
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