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Post by masha on Sept 14, 2004 3:09:11 GMT -5
OK - At our dog club we always start with a off leash socialising session for those dogs that are OK with this kind of thing. Anastasia is very good with other dogs - she's happy to submit to a big sexy male, and she's gentle with little dogs. But she does get over excited and last Saturday she actually started a fight.
It happened like this: There is a young Golden Retriever called Sasha. She is just CRAZY. She arrives at the club at full speed jumping and rolling and yipping and just about doing everything but climb out of hers skin.
To me her body language looks real weerd because she is in a sort of constant submit position, but while running full speed ahead, if you can imagine that. Sort of a canine limbo dance. Other dogs are always chasing her and getting over excited when she's around. Well, next thing I hear a lot of growling and Ana has pinned her down. It looked like it was still in the "rough game" stage but could easily escalate into a fight.
What should I have done? A trainer was nearer than me, stepped in with a loud NO and dragged her off. Is this the right thing to do?
A hour or so later I happened to be sitting next to this Golden Retrievers owner and Ana and Sasha indulged in an exiting game of Bite My Head While I Lie Next To You and they seemed to get on fine.
But to be honest it might not have been the same dog, as there are two young Goldies called Sasha and I cant tell them apart...
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Post by sibemom on Sept 14, 2004 4:52:23 GMT -5
I guess I would have done the same thing, just to re-enforce the fact that they should not get to rough. It still might have been rough play because I know with my two, it get's intense sometimes, but never to the point of injury. With them I have to be carful because I am trying to keep Blade at the top of the order between the two. So Willow gets reprimanded more than he does. It's good though that the trainer stepped in, that shows they are paying attention. The kennel club that I go to some of the trainers do not pay attention as much as they should and it can get ugly. So I think that was ok, because obviously your dog is not an extreme aggresor ;D
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Post by Iluvmypup on Sept 14, 2004 10:57:04 GMT -5
Thats most likely what I would have done, but since I wasn't there, its hard to completely tell what the situation was like.
When any dog at the dog training facility I work at gets out of hand during their play sessions, I just grab the hose, and spray over them. Nice quick fix. ;D If there is no water nearby, and I know the two dogs don't have aggression problems, I'll break them up myself. That can be risky though, unless your certain the dogs won't bite...sometimes the dogs get so riled up they don't realize what they're biting until its too late.
For this reason, sometimes trainers have the people keep their dogs on-leash so they can easily pull them out of the situation.
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Post by masha on Sept 14, 2004 14:59:20 GMT -5
Yup, the trainer did the right thing - and their always really on the ball there. I guess in this kind of situation- where its really a game that might turn into a fight, stepping in with a firm no and grabbing a collar is OK.
I just sometimes wonder, if two dogs are about to fight whether stepping closer and sounding aggresive couldnt trigger something more - escalate the fight. Possibly in a situation where the dogs are scared, which was not the case in this instance.
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Post by Iluvmypup on Sept 14, 2004 15:04:10 GMT -5
Sometimes it can....just like if you started shouting at a dog for barking, the barking would just get worse.
I think as long as the trainer stayed calm, then it wouldn't come across as the trainer being 'aggressive' to the dogs. Its when a person stomps over, starts talking in a mean voice, and grabs and drags the dog. A better way would be to stay calm, and use a low tone of voice while only repeating one command, rather then 'yelling' at the dogs. I've seen some so-called 'trainers' start screaming at the top of their lungs, literally. The dogs just learn to ignore them. ;D
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Post by Aussienot on Sept 14, 2004 18:00:45 GMT -5
It's a panic situation, and hard to keep your head when you see your combative dog squaring off with another, but that is NOT the time to correct the behavior. Break it up with a light happy tone, and circle the dogs away from each other, don't pull straight back. More than once I have felt like a right idiot, dragging Finn away with a "let's go, happy puppy" type lilt to defuse the situation. And if a fight should break out, this is the best way to end it without getting hurt: www.leerburg.com/dogfight.htmSome bloody pictures, but valuable information to have in an emergency.
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Post by amyjo on Sept 29, 2004 11:40:01 GMT -5
I learned how to do it from my dog, Elvis. If you can catch it in the very beginnig stages BEFORE there is lunging and barking... Then you can go quietly and confidently and get in between them and body block them from each other...cutting the "pre-aggressor" off again and again until they give up and go away. This doesn't work in every situation (like if you can't see it about to start) but when it does it is very powerful...
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Post by masha on Sept 29, 2004 15:09:27 GMT -5
I'm always uncertain when I can move towards two dogs who are checking each other out. Sometimes it seems that when their still at the sniffing stage, its best to ignore them. Moving towards them seems to trigger a jealous or a protective response. I havent particularly noticed this with Anastasia, but I'm not sure what causes her to get growly. She seems to get over exited by a dog that is nervous and go into too boisterous play rather than be aggresive out of fear.
I had an incident the other day - Me and Anna were walking towards a lady with a staffie. Both dogs were off leash. They handnt realy reacted to one another yet, when this woman simply lunged at her dog, in a protective way, to snatch it away from Ana - who wasnt anywhere close. So of course this is very exciting, and next thing we have some growling and running around happening. This woman was shouting at me to "get my dog away", which was what I was trying very hard to do! And anyway, she was really not being agresive, just running after the dog. Not acceptable, but not scary. Its amazing how quickly the animals pick up on the owners tension.
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Post by Iluvmypup on Sept 29, 2004 20:24:04 GMT -5
I agree masha...dogs can quickly pick up on if the owner is tensing or not. My doberman seems to be especially 'good' at this. I have to give her slack leash and act as casual as possible around other dogs or she thinks theres something wrong and tenses up just like me. Its really strange. And that was weird about that lady grabbing her dog. As if your dog was the one causing all the trouble.
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Post by Willow on Oct 1, 2004 17:44:33 GMT -5
Why not prevent a fight from starting in the first place by not letting the dogs "play" or "socialize"? This is exactly what I am against at "training" classes, and why!! Please tell me one good thing that comes out of this sort of thing, except that maybe you learn how to break up a fight! Luv, if you keep a hose handy to use to break up a fight, this must happen a lot! Do you honestly believe this is "play" or "socializing"? This is nothing but a free for all, and I cannot think of one good thing this does for any of the dogs, whether they are involved in the fight or not, and it doesn't matter if it even happens "just one time". One time is enough! Than people cannot understand why their dogs become dog/dog aggressive!
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Post by sibemom on Oct 1, 2004 18:14:15 GMT -5
You are so right Loey ;D To me it's the same issue as with dog parks which I am soooo totaly against. Training class is for training your dog under great distraction because of the other dogs that are there, NOT for allowing the dogs to run up to each other sniff, snort etc... Blade was a very cautious dog at training class and it was funny because most of the dogs shyed away from him . If I noticed that there was one that he took an interst in I would allow some breif interaction and then if the they got along well I would let them get close but only ON LEASH. I have seen a few dog fights at this class and this is when an owner was not paying attention allowed their dog to get away from them and sure enough they would pick the dog that they knew would jump at a chance to fight. One bad mishap can screw up a dog for good. I was lucky with Blade because he has not been messed up by this in anyway, but with Willow I have to be very careful.
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Post by masha on Oct 2, 2004 0:10:28 GMT -5
OK - this is interesting - I can see you point about preventing dog fights by not having this kind of socialising. But the thing is, we often walk our dogs off leash, and then they meet other dogs off leash. We have to walk them off leash otherwise they would never get enough excersize. So they need to know how to handle themselves. Our older dog, who was never socialised and never goes to these kinds of classes,often gets aggresive. He has been in a number of fights. He doesnt know how to handle the situation. We have to keep him on leash unless we know there are no other dogs around. The younger dog is much better. OK, she will sometimes get over excited and were working on improving her re-call for those times when I need to get her AWAY. But she never initiates an aggresive encounter like Basjan does - in fact what she does is more like playing too roughly, which might escalate. I believe she is better at this because she has learnt doggy manners from other dogs while socialising. Another thing - when my dogs are on leash, they are much more likely to be agressive. Why is this? I dont really have them on a tight leash and I dont think they are picking up any worry from me - In fact I've only seen one fight at our club, which has hundreds of dogs running around, and Ive been there for a year now. That was between two dogs from the same household. I agree that its unrealistic to expect your dog to "play"with another dog as though its a child. And then be surprised if the dogs react in very unchild like ways! There is a lot to what you say. One woman at our dog club has a lovely big boxer, Skye . When he was a pup, another dog at the club attacked him at the club. Now, this did not happen during socialising, and both dogs were on leash. He is now a huge pack of muscle and extreemly dog aggresive. She can never let him off leash. Whether this is solely because of this incident in his puppyhood, who can say? But in probably contributed to it... So I dont realy know what to think. One last thing, something curious I saw yesterday which you guys could interpret for me We were walking on the beach (with only Anna). We came accross two dogs, a dalmation and another brown furry one of indeterminate breed, quite a bit smaller than the dalmation. Our dogs played together for a bit, and then the dalmation started barking at Anna for some reason. She was barking fiercely, and Anna was sort of backing away going "Ok, ok, cool off buster". The dalmation was advancing on Anna. Then the smaller dog ran up to this, and grabbed the dalmation by the ear and pulled her back. When this did not work, she grabbed the scruff and held her. It really looked like mom coming in and breaking up the fight, except that "mom" in this case was quite a bit smaller than her child! From reading my posts you would think our dogs are always getting into fights...
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Post by Willow on Oct 2, 2004 8:05:41 GMT -5
masha, by "walking your dog off leash" do you mean letting them run and exercise or are you walking them "at heel"?
My dogs are hardly ever "on leash", but they are: l. Trained to come when I call. 2. Trained to "come to heel" and stay there when I tell them to, and this is what I do if we meet a strange dog, or an ATV I don't want them to try to chase etc.
It's all about "training". We used to have Labs. One we entered in Field Trials, and some were just hunting dogs, but they have to be trained and under control at all times because these dogs are always off leash!!! They can't "work" on leash, and you can't have your dog running up to and wanting to "socialize" with every other dog in the Trial or out in the hunting field!!! Can you imagine the total chaos? These dogs are actually taught to "honor" another dog while it is retrieving etc. That means it sits quietly when the other dog goes to make a retrieve. Can you also imagine how hard this is for a dog that lives to retrieve? But it can be done, and it must be done.
It doesn't matter what breed of dog you have. It should be taught to ignor other dogs on or off leash, and this is what obedience classes should teach. As Ann said, group classes are great for this, because it teaches your dog to ignor what is going on around it and focus on/listen to you. By allowing the dogs to "play" before, during or after the class, the dogs are learning that when they are at class, they get to play and or fight with all the other dogs, and this is what they will want to do when they are supposed to be learning to ignore other dogs.
As far as not expecting a dog to play as children would. Do you have children? Children don't always "play nice" either! They don't want to share their toys etc., and they often fight, but the difference with children and dogs is that you can teach your children to play nicely with other children. (most children, anyway! ;D) but you can't "teach" a dog to "play nice" with other dogs. The dog is either "social" to other dogs or it is not. All you can do is teach/train a dog to obey you and to ignor other dogs where ever you are when you tell it to. For instance, at the Vets. It is sooooo annoying to me when I take my dog in and other people let their dogs come up to my dog! I don't know if that dog is friendly or what that dog is in there for! It may have something my dog can catch, and visa versa! My dogs are taught to walk at heel into the Vets office and to sit quietly by me, no matter how much chaos is going on around them.
To repeat: It's all about "manners" and "training".
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Post by Nicole on Oct 2, 2004 8:38:00 GMT -5
You are so right Willow!! I agree with everything that you have said. Masha as for the leash aggression, a dog can even sense a change in your heart rate as well as smell the release of adreneline when you get nervous. They can sense the slightest apprehension even though you may not be aware that you are acting different. Also, and this is important, a dog cannot flee on leash. So there is only one option for them which isn't always being nice especially if dealing with a fearful dog or a dog being approached by an aggressor. They will fight or at least make a showing of aggression to scare the other dog away. Off leash the dog has the option to flee and is more comfortable checking out the dog. If things go south they can run. On leash, running away isn't an option. I had a similar encounter to what you described. When Reign was a young pup we came upon two loose dogs. One dog was barking furiously at Reign and the other ran head first into the side of the barker and pushed him away. The barker then minded his own business. I thought it was amazing. The other dog was obviously alpha and remember, only alpha decides when the pack fights. One last thing I wanted to mention. In addition to the potential fighting in a goup free for all, there exists the real potential for a dog to pick up some very bad habits from other unruly and not so social dogs and this is so hard to undo. For example, as a pup, Reign learned from a neighborhood adult german shepherd that under no circumstances are you ever to allow any dog near your toy and your toy is defined as any toy that you have in your mouth. To this day, Reign cannot have a toy if any dog is around. He never was like this until the GSD almost took his head off for going near his toy. They learn all kinds of nasty habits from other dogs. So just watch out for that.
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Post by Iluvmypup on Oct 2, 2004 10:56:43 GMT -5
Uggh...thats one of my pet peeves. People who let their dogs go up to anyone without even asking. Its like "HELLO! earth calling human!" Its great that they know their dog is friendly, but what if mine was very aggressive? I never tell the people anything, but maybe I should for their dog's safety sake. Anyways, as far as 'keeping a hose handy', thats for when I have people over who need help with their dogs. If the dog is friendly and gets along good with my dogs after a 'sniffing meeting', they're allowed to play outside for 15 minutes for playtime. I keep the hose handy just in case the play gets overboard and I need to break them up. OR, I use it at a doggy daycare I work at, which has dogs that I have no clue if they're friendly, but were given a 'test' before being allowed to play. I don't make the rules for that and wouldn't feel comfortable breaking up the 'overboard play' of dogs I don't know. I've always socialized my dogs and let them play...never had a second thought of it. Whats wrong about letting a dog socialize with his own kind, just like us humans want human contact once in a while? Just out of curiousity, do your dogs ever get a playtime with other dogs, Willow?
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