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Post by Willow on Oct 2, 2004 11:21:44 GMT -5
Whats wrong about letting a dog socialize with his own kind, just like us humans want human contact once in a while? Just out of curiousity, do your dogs ever get a playtime with other dogs, Willow? Luv, I see, as usual, you have misssed the whole point! I have also commented on my dogs and "socialization" in the Puppy Class thread, which you must have missed, so I won't repeat it here. I can sense every one saying, "shut up about this subject already", , so that is what I am going to do. ;D
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Post by Nicole on Oct 2, 2004 12:09:05 GMT -5
See this bugs me because the point that you are not getting is so clear. First dogs are not humans. They are dogs. And playing with a KNOWN dog FRIEND is not the same as throwing a dog into a park/kindergarten/daycare situation with a bunch of unknown temperments or having them meet a strange dog you know nothing about. That is the point.
And just because you haven't had a problem doesn't make it responsible to tell other novice dog owners to take that risk. There are few things more hellish to deal with than a dog aggressive dog. And that is the risk that you take everytime you let your dog loose with unknown dogs.
So the point is to socialize with dogs who you know and are comfortable with NOT to throw your vulnerable pup into a group of potential bullies and aggressors.
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Post by masha on Oct 2, 2004 14:46:36 GMT -5
I know ! I was thinking of that as I wrote that. Children are just more subtle about it, I geuss. What you are saying about teaching your dog to ignore other dogs makes sense to me. In fact, what I'm thinking now is that perhaps allowing dogs to socialise freely with other pups when they are pups themselves is good to help them learn apropriate behaviour, but when they are adults one should be a lot more careful about it. Possibly let them interact only with dogs you realy know are OK and wont teach bad habits, as Niclole points out. I do feel this kind of interaction is essential, as Anastasia realy needs to play with another dog - the play options with me are so limited! She cant chase me, I NEVER chase her, she cant bite me... I dont know any of the doggy play rules... But seriously, one of the great pleasures of owning her is watching her play with another dog. Usually a Ridgeback, or maybe a Jack Russel. Or those dogs we call Township dogs (thats not just a euphemism, thats a real breed - amazing dogs, they are!) Its great watching them play. They chase, switch around, chase, run straight for your legs, chase, bop around with their chins tucked down batting with their paws, and finally collapse in a heap feebly playing I Can Bite Your Cheeck First until they are just a panting heap. But yes, other people who cant stay out of your space can be a major problem. Youre trying to do your best to keep out of their way and they march right up to you. I'd love to know more about how dogs react to a persons emotional state. I just realised a couple of days ago, here I was going "whats wrong with my dog, she's acting all out of character", and all the time I had been going through a bit of a rough patch, over stressed and freaked out. Of course she would pick up on that! In fact now I think about it, my sister once told me the following story: she was at a friends house, with their dog Bart. Bart has many toys that he LOVES. She was upset about something and crying. Bart kept bringing her one toy after the other, sort of pushing them into her lap. OK, going sort of off topic here!
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Post by Willow on Oct 2, 2004 15:11:24 GMT -5
Actually, masha, it's not even wise to let pups freely "socialize" with other pups, because even with puppies you have your submissive ones and your dominant ones, and the puppy period is critical in preventing aggression from rearing it's ugly head.
Other's here can explain it better than I can, but if you have a puppy who tends to be dominant and you turn him loose with other puppies he will dominate or bully the more submissive pups, thereby teaching him to be aggressive to other dogs. If he meets his match with another dominant pup, and they try to bully each other, the end result will be the same.
If you have a submissive puppy and it is bullied by a dominant pup, it can very well also become dog aggressive and is often the cause of a dog being a "fear biter" later on in life.
I don't know if you read in a post what Richard had to say about his GSD dog, Rocky. He took him to a "puppy play/training class and a more dominant puppy chased Rocky under a bench. Believe me, this can be very traumatic to a puppy and he can have lasting negative effects from even just one incident such as this. Richard can tell you how he has worked to manage Rocky's dog aggression, which is most probably due to this one incident. There are also others (Ann) for one, who have had their dogs attacked as puppies.
That is why I am very cautious with both my puppies and adult dogs.l I don't just take them to a puppy class, an obedience class, doggie park or doggie day care and let them run amuck with all the other puppies/dogs.
I also believe if you have more than one dog, your dog doesn't need to play with strange dogs. Wolves and wild dogs do not go out looking for strange packs to "socialize/play" with. On the contrary, when they find another pack or single wolf in their territory, they are more apt to kill it. To a wolf or dog his "pack" is all it needs or wants, even if they are the only dog in your family.
People are the ones who have decided that dogs need other dogs to play with to be happy, but that just isn't so!
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Post by masha on Oct 3, 2004 2:02:59 GMT -5
Well its a tricky one, I geuss.
Its difficult to figure out where we humans are projecting our needs onto our dogs rather than just looking at them and seeing them for what they are.
Sometimes it seems that we see them as four legged children who are better than any child could be... more maleable, I mean. And obviously that is problematic and leads to all kinds of strange behaviour and misunderstandings.
Now I know that you guys wont agree with the next thing: I think that while it might be useful (and even essential) to look at the pack behaviour of wolves and other wild animals to understand dogs better, havent dogs been changed by us into something different from a wolf? So their behaviour cannot always be analysed purely on their pack needs to other dogs, and the kinds of needs an adult wild dog or wolf would have?
They are eternal puppies, always playful and dependant. Possibly many dogs feel mixed up, with these contradictory needs to establish a familiar world for themsleves in a human family on the one hand and express their doggy needs on the other.
Anyway I'm so glad I've been following this thread because it has made me think differently about the whole doggy play thing. Its a relief actualy, to admit that if your dog is not always acting like a "good little girl" that its not the dog thats wrong, but your own perception of what it should be acting like, and your own fault for placing the dog in a situation where it feels the need to behave in this way.
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Post by Richard on Oct 3, 2004 7:58:51 GMT -5
Hey Masha, It's called responsible dog ownership and welcome to the group ....if you know the potential problems you and your puppy could encouter (and as she gets older), you're that much more prepared to react accordingly so that your dog thinks, "hey, she's got me covered, I can relax"..... That is the difference...when people look at thier dog as something more than just a " dog" it makes all the difference in the world to the dog and owner. You take things more seriously (health, training, lifestyle) and make adjustments and corrections as required. We've bantered the socialization thing around quite a bit here....there has been some good examples for and against it...as Loey noted, we had Rocky in a puppy class and the free playtime was fun until the JRT or another dominate puppy would start pushing Rocky around....after a while, he figured, heck, I'm big, I can push around too....he started chasing this Burmese MD around one day and we unfortunately didn't put a stop to that right away and each week, it was getting more "outta control" i.e.: Rocky being harassed and him harassing other puppies...the only thing I could see what came out of the free play was we started an early recall to me when things starting getting goofy....we didn't know any better.....And this was a well run class too...it's just a mix of different breed types and personalities. Did all of this help...well, sorta, but Rocky still ended up with a dog aggression problem that we sorted out with the help of an excellent trainer who trained me how to handle Rocky...it was a wakeup call for both of us. I'd never had a working class hard headed GSD before...Rocky kept us busy but we got busier and got on top of him. Today, I've got a dog who'll bark at you at the door then welcome you with licks and a toy....he walks past most leaping, jumping, frothing, barking dogs without a care ....we still have the occasional bark and fluff but that is usually when we're being charged by an off-leash dog <sigh> again in the park....at that point, he's behind me looking.....And yes, he still screws up (my fault actually) and it makes for an embarassing moment.....you'll never get the aggression out of your dog that is for sure..... So, you know, to me, if you put a room of Labs, Golden Ret and any other "mild temperment" dogs in a room, you'll not have a worry....those dogs don't have a mean spirit in thier bones....they want to play and whoever wins wins....when you get dogs with little attitudes who just want to kick some furry butts around (in the name of playing ) then that is when you have problems. I think all you could do is teach your dog to be tolerant of other dogs and that what you say goes when out and about...I don't go out of my way to let Rocky meet other dogs but that is my choice. I've gotten used to people picking up thier little kids and dogs as we pass..I will also cross the street to avoid dogs too. We have a Westie male across the way who is tourqed most days and wants to rip Rocky a new one....his owner just says, "why is Rocky so aggressive to Molson?" - this as Molson leaps, barks and growls at Rocky from 30 feet away!!?? Rocky knows to ignore that ...he looks but that is it. Molson has had no social skills, no training of any kind and he still is like that....the JRT on the other side of our complex is the same way, wants to rip Rocky a new one...it's had no training, no social skills or manners either....if the owner doesn't direct (aka take control) of the dogs behaviour, the dog will do and be whatever it wants. And my GSD (who've we've spent a lot of time/money on training) gets blamed everytime.....fortunately, I've stopped listening. I'm not the one with the problem. -Richard
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Post by Nicole on Oct 3, 2004 9:44:32 GMT -5
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Post by masha on Oct 3, 2004 12:23:57 GMT -5
Wow. That sounds bad. When I took my pup (now hardly a pup at 14 months) to puppy socialising, I was very happy with the setup . We have a very experienced trainer who keeps a hawk eye out for any misbehaviour. Her rule is, as long as the pups are matched in temprement, dont interfere, but any bullying is stopped before it starts, and a dog that is scared is put in a sort of fenced off corner where it can watch everyone else. Ive seen a rescue pup who must have been brutally treated by its previous owners, quickly change from being a nervous wreck to a much more confident dog in this situation - he could sneak out of his corner when he felt up to it, but the safe corner was there any time he felt like it. I geuss even in a situation like this, with not too many pups in a class and realy strict control, these incidents you mention could still happen. As you say, there is a big difference between a labrador and a Rotweiler. We've basically got some strict rule as to whose allowed to participate in the off leash socialising - only dogs who have completed a certain obedience level, and who are not dog aggresive may participate. Others must wear muzzles if they have problems (and many do, thats why their at the clug!) , and stay on leash, ignoring the other dogs. And right after that we have an elaborate (and I find it quite hilarious) syncronised heel pattern that the whole club participates in, in which the dogs must ignore one another. Its different every week, sometimes we are in a situation where another dog walks up to you from behind, etc. Today - strongly influenced by this thread I was extra careful while walking Annastasia in the mountain. Whenever I saw people or dogs, she had to come to heel. And if I thought it neccesary, I put her on leash. And of course, most people realy reacted as though she was a problem dog. After all, why would I restrain her unless she was a blood thirsty killer dog? One lady asked me what was wrong with her, why am I telling her to stay away from her two GSD s? Oh well. I have found recently that she is more likely to be growly with a strange dog. Its probably that she's growing up, and finding that she's actualy a quite scary young lady. Must be a nice feeling, I wish I had a big set of teeth and a fierce attitude like that.
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Post by Iluvmypup on Oct 3, 2004 17:21:53 GMT -5
I agree. I believe that a dog that is always playing with roudy dogs, will learn to be roudy as well. And a dog that is always around calmer, controled dogs, will normally play calmly with other dogs. I'm not a fan of dog parks. I've heard too many horror stories, and any old person could bring their dog there. My neighbor down the street could bring her 110 pound Dogue de Bordeaux who is extremely aggressive with other dogs if she wanted. And who's to stop her if she never realized her dog was dog-aggressive and wanted to 'socialize' it? My obedience classes that I bring my dogs to, break up the puppy play into three groups. One is for the bigger dogs, one for the medium sized, and one for the pint sized (like the rat terriers or chihuahas). Thats for the puppy groups...once you graduate and move on to the adult class, there are no more playgroups, but there is a 'sniff and greet' meeting. I do belive you should be smart with who you let your dog socialize with. I would never let my dogs play with any dog who walks up to us, and I believe that 'that is what most of us do, or should do. I enjoy watching my dogs play and enjoy other dog's company as they really enjoy it. My friends and I have a yearly 'beach party' where we bring our dogs to enjoy off-leash play along a private beach....theres nothing better.
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Post by sibemom on Oct 4, 2004 4:57:21 GMT -5
Well I can't say that my dogs enjoy each others company, as much as I thought they would I do not allow even at puppy class at least for Willow any play time with the other pups, and that is because of the way she is right now. If she shows a positive reaction to one pup or the other I do allow them to get close and I pay attention to her body language and I don't get tense by jumping ahead and thinking she will react aggresively to the other pup, I watch and if she gets out of line I handle it. I don't think it is nessecary to allow play time with strange pups, she has more than enough play time with Blade. If the dogs are agreeable to it well that's ok I guess but you have to watch them like hawks because what can start out being fun and wiggles can get ugly even with pups. I guess I will stress my point again. It is not important to me that my dogs get along with every other dog out there, as long as they behave acceptably, and that they tolerate each other. We are making some good strides forward, and since I have added some Bach Flower essence to Willows diet she is comming out of this fear stage a little faster. I also think that if your dog learns that everytime they are in a group setting play is going to be allowed you are kind of hurting the training process, and could be hurting your dogs developement in the instance if a fight would break out.
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Post by Willow on Oct 4, 2004 8:04:39 GMT -5
I also think that if your dog learns that everytime they are in a group setting play is going to be allowed you are kind of hurting the training process, and could be hurting your dogs developement in the instance if a fight would break out. Ann, I'm glad Willow is doing better. ;D I also agree with this statement. Things can turn ugly before we have a chance to react, even with dogs your dogs are "used" to, and I don't feel it's fair to put my dogs in the position of that happening. Look what happened to "Buddy" before I got him. All he wanted to do was play with the other dog and was severly injured because of it. Thankfully there is absolutely no dog aggression with him, because of it, (yet, anyway), but when he hears another dog bark, he becomes "anxious" and hesitant to walk by it, even at a distance. He is too sweet to have had this happen to him, and just because the previous owner was too ignorant to keep him and her Mals separated after the first incident. We all make mistakes, and I can see how it could happen the first time, but not three times!
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