GWPSage
Trained
Back in the saddle again
Posts: 201
|
Post by GWPSage on Aug 27, 2004 13:33:44 GMT -5
Thats Sages theory.... the thread I posted had some technical difficulties and Brooke felt I should re- post. So here goes.
Sage grew up in a field (as I have stated before) I got her when she was six months old, she is highly exciteable. The first the months I we were tpgether Sages confidence grew alot. We visited Petsmart religiously, sat in adoption groups. Anything to help Sage to see what people were about. Nov of 01' She and I relocated to AZ by plane, the trip was alittle stressfull which I anticipated. Her health check was the first time Sage exhibited any anxiety around people. Sage and I stayed with my sister and her husband for a short time, 2 mos after we got to AZ Sage bit for the first time.. She growled then took full bite of my BIL's calf, this was a result of me reaching forward to catch my nephew as his father was doing something totally idiotic and endangering his sons safety. My attention was focused on my nephew not the dog so I did not observe any changes in behavior. About three weeks later I just happened to look out the kitchen window as Sage was following him her head was high and her gait was snappy (BIL was carrying a BB gun). Then with no change in attitude she bit him again then retreated. (Severly puncturing the same leg). I know Sage picked up on my hostility toward my BIL, he is very unpredictable and extremely unstable. Needless to say Sage and I got the heck outta dodge as soon as we could! We (Sage and I) were at a friends house, her daughter was (play) agitating her JRT. Sage became very alert jumpped a half door without missing a beat bit her on the calf. (she was sitting indian style). That weekend I took her to a semi- retired extremely talented trainer to be evaluated. She said Sage had no confidence and needed "Yes you can training" and briefly gave me an overview of what it would entail. Left alot of open ends. I was working with a "trainer" who she trained (has her own ideas) so I believe she felt that my "friend" would fill in the details. Sage was handled by her only once, and that is all it took to totally crush the dog. It makes me sick what I have allowed other people to put my dog through. Anyway we started implimenting what I understood of "Yes you can training". Her confidence was coming back. And my friends daughter did something un- ordinary (She slid down a pile of grindings). Sage was leaning my leg then in one jump she had bitten the girl for the second time, puncturing her calf once again. I was then instructed not to correct my dog but have her make friends with the girl. I hesitantly followed her direction, as she "is" a more experienced handler than I. After that day Sage has been very anxious around that girl. I do not allow any close personal contact between them. She bit a neighbor as she came into the yard with a manure fork to "help" as I was seperating two dogs which were fighting ( I didnt like that lady very much either lol). I shouted to her not to come into the yard as Sage was running loose. She lowered her head this time and bit her on the ankle, no other signs of an on coming attack. I didnt have time to say down! Which she is highly reponsive to. :: SIGH :: Its almost over.I stumbled on a program called RRRR its much like the NILF program so we started doggie bootcamp. Which was very effective Sage went about 6 mos without biting anyone, she was allowed contact with people. Always leashed and controlled. We even did a group OB class where Sage was one of the top dogs in the intermediate/advance class, there was only one time in the group where she looked like she was going to do something. A woman whos dog was on a down stay next to Sage. Swiftly approached her dog to correct it for rolling in the grass Sages eyes got large and she started blinking nervously I stepped back and re-inforced the down command then immediately freed her as her eyes met mine. The woman was able to return to the line without my big ankle biter hanging off her leg. I was very proud of her. We rejoiced for 15 minutes everyone was looking at us like we were insane the dog gets loco... Well her last bite was when my cousin was visiting over night. I instructed her not to go in the yard without me. Which she failed to heed my warning. Sage bit her on the back of the leg as she (my cousin) was gently petting Conka. I dont know what to do we are both at the end of our ropes. We (Sage and I) have fired both of the "trainers" we were working with and are wingin' it. The only feedback I got from another trainer here was dont spay her. Any suggestions?
|
|
|
Post by amyjo on Aug 27, 2004 13:49:25 GMT -5
!!!!!!! This is crazy. You need a muzzle and you need it three years ago! You need to get a wire basket muzzle if you want to keep this dog. I feel so strongly about this - I won't offer any other advise till you do. I know you have tried to do the right thing - you have been mislead time and time again. And I know you love your dog - but you have to protect people from her and you have to protect her from the trouble she is obviously capable of getting into. Please get a muzzle. Oh and spay her. For no other reason than a dog with such a temperment should not even have the slimest chance of maybe having a litter. It will not make her worse.. Amy
|
|
|
Post by Iluvmypup on Aug 27, 2004 14:34:41 GMT -5
This is getting way out of hand. I lost track of how many people your dog has bitten so far. I'm just surprised you haven't gotten sued or in trouble yet. A dog like this, no matter how much you love him and put work into training him, IS a danger to society. First, I would spay her. Like amyjo mentioned, it won't hurt matters any. Since this dog apparently has an aggressive nature, you don't want a litter coming from her, because some of those genes could pass on to her puppies. Next, I would immediately find a behaviourist to help out. And I mean IMMEDIATELY before matters get worse. Behaviourist are different then trainers, and they'll come to your home to visit your dog and see how matters are. Also, have her vet-checked to rule out any health problems that might be causing this aggression. I agree with amyjo. This dog should be muzzled before she hurts someone worse then she already has.
|
|
|
Post by ripley on Aug 27, 2004 14:40:08 GMT -5
Holy.... I had no idea that this dog had bitten 10+ times! Amyjo is absolutely right, muzzle her!! Not just for the safety of others, but for your own safety as well because you could be facing a HUGE lawsuit if that dog were ever to get loose and bite people. No matter how slim that chance may be, what if it did happen and a little kid was the victim? Not only would the dog probably be euthanized, but you would have a huge lawsuit and not to mention a knock on your conscience. If the dog was muzzled, people could catch her and safely return her to you. I would never, ever consider letting ANY dog with a biting problem out of my house without a sturdy wire basket muzzle. I'd even think twice about letting a former biter in the yard un-muzzled. Your dog is a fear biter and, from what I've heard, very unpredictable, and it's not safe to have her outside, even in a securely fenced yard, without a muzzle. JMHO. What I'm wondering is WHY have you allowed this to go on for so long? Wouldn't you be inclined to muzzle her after two or three bites, instead of waiting for and allowing her to bite people over and over again? WHY, after she had bit your BIL once, would you even CONSIDER letting her in the yard with him again, without a proper muzzle?? On another note, Sage's temperament is not just a result of no socialization, it's a result of poor breeding and genetics. Spay her, if only to eliminate the risk of bringing more fear biters into the world. I've never heard this theory that spayed females are aggressive before you brought it up, and I don't think it's true, but spaying is the responsible thing to do, regardless. I can tell that you're trying to do the best thing and train her out of it, and I wish you all the best of luck.
|
|
GWPSage
Trained
Back in the saddle again
Posts: 201
|
Post by GWPSage on Aug 27, 2004 15:17:30 GMT -5
I agree with an appreciate everyones suggestions, as mentioned before I am having her spayed. Just wanted a little insight on that "theory." I did purchase, and use a muzzle on my dog when I have company. Its a matter of "training people" to listen to me. I cant leave Sage in the yard with a muzzle on, it is not safe for her. She runs with other dogs. I keep her in an x-pen while I am not home (indoors). And yes I have been sued, and have taken full responsibilty for the actions of my dog. I have also seen a behaviorist, she said it was lack of socialization and she has a high possiblility of being "worked out of it". I just can not take another chance on a trainer, so we are out on a limb.
|
|
|
Post by ripley on Aug 27, 2004 15:23:04 GMT -5
Training people to listen to you? that's a tough one... People who come to my house think that my dog is just a decoration to be picked up constantly. So i can kind of relate there. What are you asking people who come to your house to do? (or not do)
|
|
|
Post by Willow on Aug 27, 2004 15:24:12 GMT -5
Next, I would immediately find a behaviourist to help out. And I mean IMMEDIATELY before matters get worse. Behaviourist are different then trainers, and they'll come to your home to visit your dog and see how matters are. Also, have her vet-checked to rule out any health problems that might be causing this aggression. Vet check yes, but I would look for a trainer who has successfully trained aggressive dogs. Get references. As was noted in another thread, most behaviorists won't even mess with a dog that has bitten this many times, but will tell you to put the dog down!! If you don't believe me...contact Patricia McConnell and then report back to us what she has to say. Don't get me wrong, I am one of Pats biggest fans for some things , but when it comes to this type of aggression, I can pretty much predict what she will tell you. I know, because when I was volunteering with the Rescue's an adopter called me and said their dog was starting to growl/nip them when they tried to get him off the couch, bed etc. She said she called Pat McConnell and without even evaluating the dog, she suggested he be put down. I suggested the people invest in a pinch collar, make the dog keep four on the floor and immediately start the NILIF program. They still have the dog and he is doing fine with no more biting incidents.
|
|
|
Post by amyjo on Aug 27, 2004 15:44:07 GMT -5
1. A fear biter should not be running loose with other dogs who pick on her or who might be a danger to her. If she is being picked on this will regularly undermine her confidence. If you can't trust those other dogs when she is muzzled - she shouldn't be hanging out with them when she is un-muzzled either.
2. Fear biting can be helped with confidence and desensitization but it can never be "cured" because you could never predict all the situations in which she might frighten. If you want to keep this dog - she can live a somewhat normal life but you have to be willing to limit her environment to very controlled circumstances that you can mananage and you have to muzzle her when you can't.
|
|
GWPSage
Trained
Back in the saddle again
Posts: 201
|
Post by GWPSage on Aug 27, 2004 15:45:17 GMT -5
I explain to them in detail what is permitted with Sage, which is nothing unless she is leashed with a pinch and muzzled. Brief pets are okay, no lavishing her with attention trying to get her to buy in and be "friends".I dont allow her to even run with the muzzle on with company, as she has attempted to bite with it on and bruised my friends leg. The reason my cousin got bit was she failed to follow instructions, same with my neighbor while she was trying to be a nice person and help with the dogs, she was fully aware Sage was a biter, the dog was behind an 8 foot chain fence. I told her no and she chose to come in the yard. I also got bit twice in the midst of the fiasco. (not by sage) Everyone feels like they are the exemption. Sometimes I wonder when my number will be up, until then we will just keep working.
I am making an appointment to have bloodwork done on Monday... Hopefully something shows up at least I will have some answers.
|
|
|
Post by Willow on Aug 27, 2004 17:03:44 GMT -5
Look. It is not other peoples responsibility to see that your dog does not bite them! It's your responsibility to see that your dog does not bite!!!
What you are doing is blaming the ones who got bit, because your dog bit them.
Now I understand why she bites. You are not in control of her and the situation, she is.
Until you realize where the fault lies, with you, it will just progress until animal control comes and does something about the situation, and it won't be pretty!
I can believe you still have people who are willing to come to your house!
|
|
GWPSage
Trained
Back in the saddle again
Posts: 201
|
Post by GWPSage on Aug 27, 2004 17:33:43 GMT -5
Sorry somehow I lost the post I sent... I am definitely learning that you must be very precise and careful with your words on this post. What you are referring to Willow was the fact that no one listens to directions. I was not blameing anyone for the actions of MY dog. I know it is MY responsibility to prevent accidents from occuring. And when it does I take responsibilty for her actions. I am doing everything I can think of to prevent it from happening again. It is unfortunate that I have "allowed" it to happen. I was misguided, and extremely uninformed. This is my first "fear biter". I know and understand the importance of keeping a dog like her underwraps. If I didnt care I wouldnt ask for help. This post has given me alot of valuable information. I appreciate everyones feedback, and those procedures will be more strictly enforced.
|
|
|
Post by ripley on Aug 27, 2004 18:00:10 GMT -5
GWPSage, a fear biter will never be cured.
Maybe the best way to handle her is to completely remove her from the room when you know strangers will be around. Crating her when you have company is a good idea.
You can't control what other people do, and if they don't follow your directions, they will be bitten, but it is still YOUR FAULT every time your dog bites someone. So, to prevent that, why not eliminate this dog's exposure to strangers and visitors? She obviously doesn't like them, so why does she need to be around them? Surely they would be just as happy with the company of your non-aggressive dogs.
Although you are doing a pretty good job with training her, I don't see why you CONTINUOUSLY set yourself up for failure by allowing her to come in contact with so many other people. She's an aggressive and potentially dangerous dog, and you're not treating her like one!
I guess my point is that you cannot trust this dog with anyone or anything. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but this dog is in a habit now. Whenever she feels uncomfortable, she bites someone's leg. Until she learns that it is unacceptable and that she has to deal with her nervousness some other way, she'll be best off being crated when visitors come over. As for taking her places where she'll be around other people.. I wouldn't even try it. Ever.
|
|
|
Post by Aussienot on Aug 27, 2004 18:35:54 GMT -5
I recommend you discard the "make friends with the dog to prevent biting" theory, if you haven't already. Forcing a fearful dog to socialise is a really wrong concept.
Sage isn't biting out of dislike, she's biting out of fear. Even people she likes, or is indifferent to, can do "unexpected/startling' things that may provoke her defensive drives.
And friends and family are notoriously unreliable about following directions. Not everyone will get that this dog needs special handling. So crate when visitors are about, and I'd recommend a strong kennel for when she's outside. Muzzle in public. It is possible to help and keep her, but don't expect her to meet the expectations of a normal family pet.
|
|
GWPSage
Trained
Back in the saddle again
Posts: 201
|
Post by GWPSage on Aug 27, 2004 19:41:22 GMT -5
I agree, and am aware that she will never ever no matter how much training I or anyone else puts into her be a reliable dog. I am not living in a fantasy world, I am a reasonably educated person. I kick myself for being so neieve. I believe we have covered almost every aspect of muzzling and crating the dog, this discussion is just going in circles. She hasnt bit anyone for quite some time. Doesnt mean she is "Cured" or I will let her climb up into someones lap. I am managing the dog. I might not have "Managed" her in the past but that was the past. I was looking for suggestions as to how to move forward. That is all.. And yes Aussie that "idea" went out the window that day.
|
|
|
Post by ripley on Aug 27, 2004 22:54:57 GMT -5
OK.. Suggestions for the future.. Sage, as great as she is with you, is quite obviously NOT good in different situations and she should just be a homebody.. That means no walks in public places, etc. She should get used to being left at home every time you take your other dogs somewhere. Sage could benefit really well by having a job. Have you tried agility? What about tracking? That mental stimulation might calm her down a bit and if it's fun for her, her confidence will skyrocket. TAKE IT SLOW. It sounds like you've been exposing her a lot to other people, but first you need to build up her confidence and teach her what she can and cannot do. And when you first introduce another person, have it be a quiet, still person who will just sit nicely in your house and talk to you. Then eventually have it be two quiet, still people... Once she is completely relaxed with them being around the house, have them get up and start moving around slowly and normally. No running, wrestling or anything.. Once she's comfortable again with that, escalate the amount of noise they make, etc. etc. etc. Another tip for building confidence: don't let other people pet her, ever. Let her know that you will watch over her, and that as long as she stays by your side, nothing bad or uncomfortable will happen to her. If she wants someone to pet her, she can approach them herself. (Leashed and muzzled of course.) I haven't met your dog, and aside from incorporating NILIF and gradually desensitizing her to people, I don't have much more to offer. Good luck.
|
|