GWPSage
Trained
Back in the saddle again
Posts: 201
|
Post by GWPSage on Aug 28, 2004 18:31:17 GMT -5
I was reading a site authored by Myrna Milani, she was explaining the effects of Domestication on Animal Physiology and Behavior. In reading other threads I can gather everyones opinions regarding "behaviorists". Here is the web site if you care to read.. www.mmilani.com/hollistic_animal_behavior.htmlI really dont want to give my opinion, or summarize what I got from the site. Although I feel it 100% applicable to my dog. (Lack of socialization, early human contact) DO what you will with it, I am started to wonder why ANYONE sticks around here.
|
|
|
Post by Aussienot on Aug 28, 2004 18:47:10 GMT -5
Many of the posts in the 'Health and Nutrition' forum explore this topic, particularly Willow's, if you are interested. You'll find a lot of advocacy for treating the dog holistically, homopathy, supporting the body and mind through natural remedies, species appropriate diet, vaccionois, and chemical overload.
|
|
|
Post by Laura on Aug 28, 2004 19:38:38 GMT -5
I will second Aussie's post, many of us on this board are against overvaccination, and many of us (myself included) feed our dogs a raw or species appropriate diet. As for Dr. Milani's article, she is correct about the hyperthyroidism, which I do believe several members have suggested that you have a blood panel done to see if that is a root cause to Sage's aggression. And many of the board members have quite a bit of experience with aggression in it's many forms, and have learned the hard way on managing it. Nobody here is knocking you for trying to help this poor dog, but it's understandable for people to get upset at the fact that this dog has bitten people multiple times. And the bottom line is what kind of quality of life will this dog have if the aggression cannot be controlled, it may be time to ask yourself that very question. Poor socialization and no human contact is bad enough, but genetics cannot be overcome. So I don't think it's quite fair of you to question "why ANYONE would continue to hang around here", when in all reality everyone here has tried to offer help.
*edited due to brain failure last evening ;D.
|
|
|
Post by Willow on Aug 29, 2004 7:40:55 GMT -5
GWPsage,
I was going to recommend you consult a "Classical Homeopath" (there is a difference in homeopaths. "Classical" is the one you want.) But, frankly, I thought it would be a waste of time.
FYI, however, I too feed my dogs a "Species Appropriate Diet" and have a wonderful Classical Homeopath treating one of my dogs for vaccinosis related conditions. I went from Vet to Vet looking for answers and didn't get any until I "stumbled" onto homeopathy. It has made a HUGE difference in my dogs condition, where drugs not only failed, but were the cause of her problems!
My homeopath treats many dogs for aggression with excellent success, and I have heard of many other cases of aggression being "cured" with homeopathy.
My homeopath believes that "genetic aggression" is due to nothing more than generations of kibble fed, vaccinated dogs. True or not, I don't know, but if it were me, I would give it a try. It might be the cure you are looking for.
|
|
|
Post by sibemom on Aug 29, 2004 8:23:40 GMT -5
OK here I go and I am sorry if I offend you GWD. I am going to be blunt here. If I had a dog that bit as many times as your did, there is no way I would keep this dog no matter how much I love it. I guess my perspective on this is that yes if you would have addressed the issues after the behaivor surfaced the first time, then homeopathic methods might have worked. Since the dog has been left in this behavior pattern I do not think anything except a muzzle is going to help this. Go to as many behaviorists as you like but the harsh reality is you have an EXTREME fear bitter. My responsiablity as a dog owner is to make sure that the general public is in no danger from my dogs. If people come to my home I expect my dogs to welcome them and act appropriatly. I give no directions on how the humans are suppose to behave where my dogs are concerned. I would never want to live that way. When people come to my home to visit I want all of us to get along, I don't want to walk on eggshells because my dog might act out. I had a lab with a thyroid problem and I managed it with drugs, and a watchful eye. When she started showing aggresion towards anyone and anything that did not live in our home that was my cue to do the right thing not only for her but for our family. I loved that dog with all my heart and had raised her from 4 weeks old. She was a very important part of our family and it hurt like hell when I had her PTS. I for one do not have extra cash to pay off a lawsuit, and I guess I value the saftey of humans more than that of my beloved pets. I don't mean to sound cold but I do not understand how you could put up with this after that many bites. I also do not understand how AC did not force you to put the dog down. You can try homeopathic treatment but again this is a behavior patteren the dog has been use to for quite some time, and I know this will never go away. It is also going to take 24/7 management by you, and I guess I just have better things to do with my time than to constantly watch over a fear bitter. JMHO
|
|
|
Post by Willow on Aug 29, 2004 8:47:19 GMT -5
Well said, Ann.
|
|
|
Post by Willow on Aug 29, 2004 9:00:36 GMT -5
I skimmed through the article by Milani, and correct me if I am wrong, but what she doesn't address is that homeopaths believe, as I said, that aggression is caused by the Rabies vaccination, and the dogs are simply displaying the symptoms of Rabies.
I would venture to guess, in this study with the foxes, they were being given regular "preventative" vaccines, although it doesn't say, nor does it say what the foxes were fed. Commercial dog food? The "fillers" in dog food, (grain/starches etc.) is said to contribute to thyroid conditions, diabetes and other diseases in dogs, as well as humans.
|
|
|
Post by Nicole on Aug 29, 2004 10:54:34 GMT -5
You have received excellent advice by everyone.
The one thing that struck me though is that on several occasions that your dog bit it does not appear from your description that the dog was actually being threatened. Perhaps the dog perceived the situations as threatening but it seems to me that he is striking without warning before there is an actual threat. Usually with fear the dog will retreat if possible or at least warn the perceived threat to cease and if the threat isn't removed the dog will attempt to retreat and only when retreat is impossible will the dog aggress. Your dog is just striking.
What was your response after each bite? It seems that he has learned that striking first even without an actual threat is okay.
I think there are many issues here and I also think a large part of it is that this dog is wired wrong. And I don't think it can be fixed to the point that you could ever allow him to be around people unmuzzled. You may be able to control him with intense 100% reliable obedience but I would never trust him.
Some dogs are just genetically wrong. And then the bad genetics is compounded by environmental experiences that make a very bad situation worse.
I don't think it is fair for you to say that you don't know why anyone sticks around here. These people have taken time out of their busy lives to try to help you. The reason why people do stick around is because many of the members are actual trainers and very experienced. Sometimes whether we like it or not the only advice is to be blunty honest with a person and unfortunately the truth isn't always easy to hear.
I hope you stick around and let us continue to help you if you intend to try to work with this dog. That means engaging in confidence building exercises, making sure there is zero opportunity to bite again, engaging in NILIF and an obedience training regimen that is geared towards 100% reliability and not putting the dog in situations that it can not handle.
|
|
|
Post by Brooke on Aug 29, 2004 12:03:56 GMT -5
That was very well said Nicki. The part that bothers me the most is that you have a fear biter that doesn't give warning and that does seem to add up to a genetic fault. At least from where we sit and what you've explained. If you want to keep her then you will have to give her a very secluded and monitored life for her saftey as well as others and that could be a lot of work. If others did not abide by my wishes, then I would ask them to leave and not come back until they were willing to listen to you and respect you in your home. You are in a very tough spot here GWP. No one here discounts that. I know I definately don't. I've looked down that path the same as you have before and it is hard facing what is. No one here will take away from that. Many of us have been through it. The difference is that for some the work is trainable and for others it only comes down to being able to manageable if at all. A genetic fault would be where managability comes in. Most people aren't up for that or more importantly have what it takes to ensure that there will never be another bite. Unless you can absolutely guarantee that no one will ever get bitten again, I don't think that it's fair to anyone, including Sage to keep her going like this. Suggesting to put a dog down is never easy. Please understand that. It's not something we take lightly. If you asked Laura about how many dogs that come into her Rescue you would be amazed at what they do and with many how much time and money they invest to re-habilitate them you would be floored. She had one sibe that her rescue spent over $4000 to save from Lepto. Just for one dog. Here is another foster that she had: leerburg.server294.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=131;t=000014#The work that goes on that some of these people do outside of this board everyday is absolutely amazing. When most people would put a dog down they really take it one step further for the sake of the dog. Thats all they are trying to do here. There are very rare occasions that we ever have suggested this over the years we've all been giving advice together and we've helped so many people. Every situation is different. There are some you can help and some that you can't. You've exhausted trainers in person and understandably no longer trust them. Based on what you've said here I honestly feel you have some thinking to do. I'm really sorry that you have to go through this. What it comes down to is what is best for Sage. I can't imagine how hard some days are for her to feel pushed and threatened enough to bite so often. Thats really not fair to her. Talk to your vet or a homeopathologist as Willow and some of the others said. Maybe think about doggie prozac or clomicalm... theres also an over the counter holistic liquid you can buy at GNC called Rescue Remedy that could help a little. It's not a cure but it may help her. Have her blood panel done. Maybe start some backyard agility with her. I think that would be great for her. We can help you with training and managing but what we can't do is ensure with the problems that Sage has, that she will get better. We are here for you with whatever you decide.
|
|
|
Post by Brooke on Aug 29, 2004 12:09:57 GMT -5
|
|
GWPSage
Trained
Back in the saddle again
Posts: 201
|
Post by GWPSage on Aug 29, 2004 12:56:18 GMT -5
Thank you for being so patient with me, and still offering advise. This is a very difficult time in my life, emotionally. I dont know what type of answeres I expected to hear. I am sorry for not handling them as well as I wished I would have. Willow, she was a board certified vet. She would lose alot of clients if she admitted that over vaccination of pets is bad for their health and well being. That page was on Neotony, and it showed me that Sage was already set up for failure. During her developmental stage, we are the "aliens" in her world. I am sure Sage was the beta dog, (where her fear aggression probably came in) in a pack there are stages to their aggression. I feel when Sage does "correct" someone for being out of line she is acting on her instinct for her survival. And she feels I wont control the situation. Most of all this article helped me realize it was not my fault she had the capability of behaving like this. I only wish I would have known how to stop it sooner, it probably would not have escalated to this large of a problem. Who knows? I have spent many tearful nights contimplating haveing Sage euthanized, life is really hard for Sage I can see it in her eyes. She just doesnt understand, I am going to try the homeo. remedies thanks for the names Brooke. I am going to go on a goose chase today. If that does not help, I will do what is best for my dog. Thank you all for your help and suggestions and for being patient with me.
|
|
|
Post by Willow on Aug 29, 2004 15:47:27 GMT -5
You are welcome. We understand your frustration, and I'm sure I can speak for everyone when I say that we hope you find a workable solution, what ever it is.
|
|
|
Post by Richard on Aug 29, 2004 18:48:57 GMT -5
I am started to wonder why ANYONE sticks around here. Hi, your understandable frustration aside, I'll tell ya why: you will learn more from the people here than any other list out there...we have folks here who are experienced in almost every corner of the dog world....and they're willing to offer support, suggestions and even a place to vent for a while.... No one person has the answer to everything but you'll also learn that there is more than one answer to a problem sometimes - and you may just find it here. -Richard
|
|
|
Post by ripley on Aug 29, 2004 19:21:51 GMT -5
I agree with K9Rocky... This place actually really intimidated me at first, because the people here know SO much more than me, and have so much more experience than some 14-year-old and her papillon, but once I got past being intimidated, the people here put their experience and knowledge to use and just in the really short while I've been here, I've gotten a lot of good advice and help.
|
|