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Post by Caitlin on Apr 21, 2004 10:11:00 GMT -5
Hi, New here and need some advice, hope you guys can help. We got a dog when he was about 6 months old, don't think he had much socialization, except for the 4 other dogs he lived with. Don't think the previous owners took him out much at all. He was getting bullied by a couple of the other dogs, so that is how we came to having him, cos the owners thought it best they got him out the way for his own safety. He arrived with scars on his face where he'd been bitten by the others, and seemed very timid at first. We are very kind people and he soon grew to trust us. Everything was going fine, we were socializing him with friendly dogs and people, until a very frightening incident happened. I was walking him to the dog park on his leash, when suddenly this huge vicious dog that was off leash came charging over the road and started to maul him. Although I was very frightened, I managed to push the big dog away and run inside the nearest public building and to wait until he had gone. There wasn't too much damage to my dog, just a small cut to his side. This was the last thing the little dude needed after all he had been through, but it didn't seem to make him regress and he still played well with his doggie friends. All was well until he hit about 18 months, it was then that he started to show aggression toward other dogs. He is now 6 yrs old and has to leashed whenever we see another dog or will chase them and bite them. He has bitten 2 dogs in the past, the first one he didn't do much damage but the last time the other dog needed vetinary treatment. Is there any hope for him. He is a great guy in every other way.
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Post by Nicole on Apr 21, 2004 12:32:29 GMT -5
Welcome Caitlin. I am sorry that this has happened to your dog. Unfortunately, fear aggression from a lack of socialization and traumatic episodes usually rears it's ugly head for the first time when the dog reaches maturity, in your case, 18 months. This is almost impossible to correct. You will likely never be able to trust your dog to frolic with other dogs off leash. You may be able to manage, but not cure, the aggression with obedience training and for that I would recommend a trainer with experience in dog aggression.That is not to say that the dog will ever be trusted to interact or play nicely with strange dogs but you should be able to get to a point with proper training where your dog is calm and ignores other strange dogs. In the meantime, I would muzzle the dog if you are going to be in any situation where he can aggress toward another dog. Please take a look at the " dog Park" thread for further insight.
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Post by sibemom on Apr 21, 2004 16:40:08 GMT -5
Everything Nicki said is right on the money but I would like to add one thing. I know your dog was not socialized correctly when it was young, and sometimes even when you spend the time to do this some dogs are still dog aggresive. That is why it is so important to train the dog to ignore other dogs. Please do read the dog park thread, most of us here do not condone dog parks because of issues like you just talked about. I have seen very social dogs turn into aggresive maniacs when let loose to run free with strange dogs.
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Post by Caitlin on Apr 21, 2004 18:08:42 GMT -5
Thankyou for your replies, yes I've read the dog park thread and have to agree that they are not the ideal place to socialize a dog as one never knows the character of any dog one might meet but many people have no choice but to use them though, especially if they live in cities and they have dogs that need lots of off leash exercise. However the incident with the big vicious dog happened on the street, it was just infortunate for us, wrong place wrong time, the damage is done now. The people I used to meet at the park had dogs well known to mine and they got along fine, there were about 4 of us that used to meet up regularly, suppose we were lucky in the fact that didn't come across aggressive dogs on the park. I do manage his aggression quite well, he mostly ignores any dog we may come across, as I leash him and distract with toys or treats whenever one appears over the horizon. I am lucky and have since moved to a country location so we can take walks and rarely meet up with other dogs now. I didn't think much more could be done than what I'm already doing, so not too disappointed. It's just a hassle when we take him on vacation and he has to spend so much time on his leash, it would nice to be able to let him off without the fear of him getting into a fight. Just thought I'd ask you guys on the off chance to see if you had any other ideas or tips I could try, but think maybe it's just something we're gonna have to live with. Thanks anyway. ;D
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Post by Richard on Apr 21, 2004 18:51:36 GMT -5
Hi Caitlin,
I own a " dog aggressive" 31/2 year old GSD named Rocky.
His dog agression problem was mostly my fault as I didn't get on top of him right away when he started his "me boss" crap with other dogs. I will not make that mistake with the next GSD I get.
What I did was to find a knowledgable trainer who understands GSD's, dog agression and how to get the best out of the handler. What I learned was it was my fault Rocky was behaving the way he did and like you, I manage it now. He's a head strong German bloodline GSD and I learned very quickly during training that I needed to be a better alpha to him and teach him that agressing towards other dogs wasn't in his best interest. We've achieved that goal and while he still may look, he knows not to even think about trying anything funny. As well, he will get behind me when we're confonted by strange dogs...that is where I want him too..let me handle the starnge dogs.
Also, I will go out of my way to avoid other people and their dogs (mostly because the people around this neighbourhood are not very good at dog training and most rush and charge us all the time....and Rocky knows to keep his cool and let me handle it).
OK, why am I telling you this? Is to let you know that you should just get out and enjoy your time with your dog...don't worry about him making friends and all that stuff...yes its nice to see dogs frolic around but that doens't happen often and quite honestly, most times people with those kinds of dogs have done no training at all with them..they're just happy go lucky dogs..not a nasty bone in their bodies (God bless 'em too!!).
I use a prong collar and a very developed alpha dog pack structure with Rocky...yes, the potential is always there, but he also knows he would rather be praised instead of popped and corrected if he decides to try to boss another dog around.
BTW, you are correct, there isn't much more you could of done...the best thing of all is that you took responsiblity for your dogs problem and worked through it....you can't solve all the problems, but as you probably have learned, you learn the signs and learn what to do to head off the "me boss" stuff.
-Richard
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Post by sibemom on Apr 21, 2004 20:31:06 GMT -5
Richard again well written I have to say I have been very lucky with all the dogs I have dealt with. Not a one was dog aggresive. I don't know if it was because of how I handled them when they came in or just because that's was their nature. When ever I would bring a new dog in I never made a fuss over it I just told the rest of the group this is the way it is going to be PERIOD. I know the whole socializing thing has gotten way bigger than I thought it should, and I am not saying you shouldnt socialize the pups but if you teach them that you are the one in controll and to ignore the other dogs most of the battle is won
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Post by Aussienot on Apr 21, 2004 21:50:05 GMT -5
My Labrador girl is fear aggressive, and with her it's all about lifetime management. I simply would not let her off leash around other dogs, nor would I put her into a pack of off leash dogs while she was on leash.
Fear aggression responds well to strong pack structure. For Sailor, her fear came from the belief she needed to defend herself from my other dog. I didn't think we had a pack leadership issue, but apparently we did!
Through NILIF, through leadership exercises such as me going through doors first, expecting her to move out of my way, and ignoring her attention seeking behavior, I gained back her trust and respect. Now that she sees me as Pack Leader, I don't see her stiffening and tensing when other dogs approach. She now believes I will protect her, so the flight/fight Defense drive doesn't get triggered so easily.
Pack Leadership doesn't just have to be about curing bad behavior, it can be about building trust, too. And a strong basis of obedience never hurts, either. She is never going to be "cured" but at least she's no longer fearful and can be out in public. On leash for life is not a bad thing.
Finn is dominant aggressive, and Pack Leadership is also the answer for that problem. Finn responded really well to boot camp, the leadership exercises, boundary training, distance control. It was like I was speaking his language for the first time.
Once I had made it clear I was the dominant one in the our pack, he stopped status seeking. His aggression is in remission. He doesn't feel the need to be the toughest dog on the ground, his pack leader is.
Finn can be off leash in controlled situations like obedience work and agility. But he's also a case of managment. I carefully control his off leash experiences and put a LOT of time, and thought into training.
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Post by Caitlin on Apr 22, 2004 12:45:28 GMT -5
Thankyou all for sharing your experiences. The Alpha pack structure approach interests me very much, could any of you tell me a little more about it and the methods used, or maybe recommend a book? Thanks Caitlin.
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Post by Laura on Apr 22, 2004 13:22:31 GMT -5
dogden.proboards21.com/index.cgi?board=Questions&action=display&thread=1079736429Caitlin, here is the link to the "Nothing In Life Is Free" article, it will explain pack structure and how to get your dog to understand his place in your "pack". One of the other things you might want to work on is desensitizing. If you can enlist the help of someone who has a dog well versed in " dog manners", that would be great. You're going to have to find what we call his circle of comfort, how close can he get to another dog without going off the deep end ;D. Start far off, 30 feet or more if needed, keeping his leash loose (more on that in a minute), and gradually get closer to the other dog. High praise and treats when he is non reactive, moving back if he reacts. Watch him very closely, the signs of distress can be as small as a series of quick blinks of the eye, or stiffening of the body. Don't go by the tail, too easy to be confused by what the tail stature means. Watch the ears, body, and most importantly the corners (commisure) of his mouth. A dog's mouth is a great indicator of what's going on in his head. If the corners of the mouth are going foward, it's a sign of out and out aggression, corners pulled back, the dog is frightened and could respond with a fight or flight response. If either of those signs appear, move back to his comfort zone. This could take a loooong time, so don't get discouraged. If you're consistent with the treats and praise when you move closer to the strange dog, he will associate the other dog with good things. The biggest mistake handlers make when walking their dogs? Tension on the leash. Nothing will make a dog more nervous and possibly aggressive, then when on a tight leash. I see more dog fights break out when dogs are leashed than not. Your dog also may be lacking in dog "social graces" as it were, and only another, well socialized dog can teach that. Social graces include bite inhibition (very important), greeting each other (they don't shake hands like we do!), and how to play fairly. One of the things I do with dog aggressive dogs is to muzzle them, and let them loose in a fenced in area with another, older, well socialized dog (also muzzled) who has impecable manners. 95% of the time, they'll be playing within 10 minutes, usually after a few minor scuffles happen, but that's ok, it's how they learn. We humans get freaked out by the sight of dogs being dogs, and that includes watching them play fight and teach each other good manners. You might be appalled watching my own two play with my 14 week old foster puppy, all teeth gnashing, snarling, and loud barking, but they're actually doing him a huge favor by showing him good dog manners. I hope this helped you some, feel free to ask anything, that's what we're here for!
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Post by Brooke on Apr 22, 2004 13:23:16 GMT -5
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Post by Richard on Apr 22, 2004 21:43:52 GMT -5
Caitlin,
The ladies here have put some excellent advice up here...read the information and you'll know what steps to take to take charge of your dog.
One last point....when we talk about the pack structure in your home it is just referring to how the dog fits into your house and how he relates to the other members of the family.
Using the NILIF methodology and strong alpha leadership, the dog can relax as he/she knows that someone is in charge of the day to day operation of the pack. Sounds kinda funny but to be honest, most dogs dont' make good alpha leaders, in fact, if no one (human) steps up to be an alpha to the dog, the dog will gladly take over and you'll get a lot of nasty behaviour since the dog will do what comes naturally. That is when you'll get the growlies and teeth baring when he/she is told to do something they don't want to do ect.
In our house, I am alpha to Rocky....then there is my wife and my daughter...Rocky is the Omega (last on the list)....he knows not to challenge anyone higher than him in the pack or face dealing with me. We started this quite early with him (this was before the dog agression part) and he did try to push our daughter around but I stepped in and made the corrections. He learned that my daughter was not to be challenged nor pushed around....as we moved on, he knew who was what and what he could get away with (very little actually)....as a result, today, he absolutely adores her and never ever even thinks about pushing her around...it is something we're glad we did in setting up the pack here. Of course, he won't challenge my wife..in fact when she raises her voice, we all run to a corner....lol lol lol......seriously though, one main point is how we treat Rocky too..my daughter knows to treat him with respect as do my wife and I...he is a member of our family and yup, occasionally, he gets to curl up with the alpha dog on the bed.....he is smart enough to know its a treat to do that and I am quite happy with that arrangement thank you!
One last point...with this pack mentality set up in his mind, once I learned how to read his body language and not let him get away with it when we were out walking (and confronted by another dog) he learned to let me handle the dog first (and get behind me as I noted before)....I stay relaxed on the leash and just say "leave it"...all I have done is transfer the alpha dog pack stuff from inside our house to outside when we're out walking...
-Richard
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Post by Caitlin on Apr 23, 2004 10:35:44 GMT -5
Thankyou guys, those links were very informative. I was surprised to learn that I do some of that stuff already, but will be starting the complete NILIF ASAP. Will let you know how it all goes. Caitlin.
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Post by Caitlin on Apr 27, 2004 14:50:41 GMT -5
Hi Guys! I know it's only been a few days since starting the NILIF but I'm so excited I just had to tell someone what has happened. You know how I said before that I have to keep an eye out for other dogs on walks, so as to leash him? Well after the dog is out of sight I usually let him off again. Most of the time he tries to run back after the dog, even if I've waited 5 minutes or more before unleashing. Today we passed 2 dogs on our walk, I leashed him as usual, but he never barked or tried to run back after them!!!! This hasn't happened since he was very young so I am very pleased with his progress so far. Thankyou all so much!!
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Post by Laura on Apr 27, 2004 15:30:56 GMT -5
Caitlin, that's terrific progress , good for you and your pup! It truly is amazing to watch a dog come around when we finally learn to speak it's "language". Just one thing, are you letting the dog off-leash when out for a walk, or just giving him lots of slack?
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Post by Caitlin on Apr 27, 2004 15:55:43 GMT -5
I let him off leash, but it's OK he has a muzzle. The reason I leash him when other dogs are around is because he runs off after them and it's hell getting back again or at least it was. I think he's started to see me as Alpha, and we have been practising his recall like mad.
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