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Post by Nicole on Apr 27, 2004 20:34:50 GMT -5
That's great progress Caitlin. You also want to make sure that he doesn't mess with (run after) a dog who can hurt him while he is muzzled.
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Post by sibemom on May 2, 2004 13:02:01 GMT -5
Good for you I am so glad you are making progress. It feels good when something starts to come together keep up the good work and keep us posted
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Post by Willow on May 2, 2004 13:14:20 GMT -5
I agree, and also back up what Nicki posted. If your dog is attacked while wearing the muzzle, not only could he be severly injured, it will undo all the good work you have done thus far.
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Post by Willow on May 2, 2004 13:19:39 GMT -5
Speaking of dogs being injured. I never realized how serious it is for a dog to get bites from another dog!!! I thought as long as the dog got out of the "scuffle" in one piece, with just some bite/puncture wounds there wasn't anything to worry about physically and was totally at how serious it really is! If a bite goes into a bone, there's a chance the limb could actually have to be amputated, due to bacterial infection. I guess I lead a sheltered life and thankfully, the only serious dog fights/injuries I have seen to date are on Animal Precinct!
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Post by Caitlin on May 2, 2004 15:00:51 GMT -5
Thanks for the encouragement everyone. I agree Willow not just physical damage is caused by dog bites but mental too. Don't think my mental scars have healed either since Murphy was attacked when still a puppy and that was over 5 years ago. I really panic if I see another off leash dog coming toward us even now. It's funny that I should have got messages from you guys today! I have only just this minute been talking to my Husband about what happened on our walk today. Normally he comes with us but today was unable to. Murphy (that's my dog) takes more notice of my husband than he does of me, so I'm a little nervous when out with him alone. So it would turn out today of all days when we headed off out that we should come face to face with 3 off leash dogs. This is a very rare occurence, as I said before I walk him in remote places where there is little chance of meeting up with other dogs. But today we turned a bend and there they were. Murphy was off leash too and no muzzle either as he likes to hunt for rabbits sometimes. He started to run to them growling, I thought OMG! this is the nightmare I always knew would come, but I just called him AND HE CAME BACK TO ME!!! Unfortunately I was so shook up at what could have happened that I forgot to praise him for doing as he was told, but did make a big fuss of him a few minutes later, I could have kicked myself for not giving immediate praise. In a situation like that he would have normally only responded to my Husband calling him back, but hey I'm the Alpha these days, thanks to NILIF and he's begining to realize this.
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Post by Nicole on May 2, 2004 17:02:26 GMT -5
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Post by ashrose on May 2, 2004 19:28:51 GMT -5
Hi everyone! I wanted to share my story with you all. This is extremely LONG but I would love any input. I adopted Rosie from petfinder.org. She was found in a bad section of town at a mini mart wandering around. Her breed is mainly Bully, but her temperament is amazing. Anyone that comes over I know and feel comfortable with she just shakes from side to side. But the second someone steps into the yard or comes to the door I do not know or am uncomfortable about she becomes a totally different dog. Her instincts are amazing. She LOVES children. My next door neighbors have 3 small children under the age of 5, and when they go outside to play they yell for Rosie and she comes tearing around the house and drops down and lets them rub her belly through the fence. And then they run up and down the fence line with her while she barks and runs with them... Well...you're thinking...what's the problem right? Well, she is very unpredictable when other dogs get near me or on my property. A scenario: I took Rosie to visit my friend in a NEW house and she loved all over her border collie (who showed no interest in her) I mean he was panting and she was licking his tounge. So that led me to believe she was going to be ok with other dogs..wrong!!! Well the same dog came over to my house and we were throwing a frisbee for him because thats ALL he cares about and while he was running after the frisbee Rosie was chasing him and playing. Well out of the blue he runs back to us for more fetching and Rosie lunges at him very aggressively. I immediately alpha roll(although at the time I didnt know what that was) her and put her leash and collar on her to sit away from us but where she could view us. Since then I have taken her to a professional trainer in one on one classes and we have come to the conclusion Rosies only issue is with ME. She goes there for daycare when I have to be at the office all day and she has NEVER showed any aggression. She plays rough and boxes and likes to play chase but other than that she love the companionship. Now he does put her with mainly male and matches them up. He does not turn her out with other alpha's. So, I guess its just a territorial issue, which makes me sad because I dont know how I can ever bring another dog into the house knowing I cant trust her. I defintely think she had a rough past based on some quirky things I had to desentize her too..Such as me taking off a belt. She freaked out when I first got her, but I called her over to me and rubbed the belt on her and let her know I would never hurt her. Now she could care less. But anyway, today we go to petsmart and she cries in excitment when she sees another dog but the girl is unpredictable so what do you do? I figure the best policy is to play it safe. So I leave the dog socializing to my trainer. But I would like to add another dog, so I'm thinking puppy which she would be able to assert her position from the very beginning but I would worry she might hurt a puppy? Help!
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Post by Aussienot on May 3, 2004 0:22:05 GMT -5
Past the puppy age, dogs don't need or want to be social with dogs outside of their own pack. It is a human characteristic that we amorphise "play dates" onto our pets. Some dogs can do it quite easily, young Lab and Goldens in particular. But lots of dogs, probably the majority, don't.
Dogs are by nature territorial, so luckily, the Border Collie didn't mind an intruder dog who was showing submissive behavior (what's what Rosie's face licking was). But back on Rosie's home turf, her rules changed. She was trying to assert her dominance, and to some extent, was resource guarding. Your attention is a resource, and the Frisbee was a resouce.
Chase, fetch and running games often trigger aggressive displays between dogs that are sorting out levels, particularly when they are from different packs.
So basically, your expectation that dogs can "come over to play" might always be unrealistic for Rosie. She can be around other dogs on neutral ground, as you've seen in the Daycare, so she might have a Dominant personality but is not automatically " dog aggressive".
In any pack, there can be only one Alpha, and it needs to be You. (And hopefully you know now that the Alpha roll is not a recomended tactic for dominance or aggression.)
I'm inferring some BIG leadership issues from what you wrote. Put her on NILIF (nothing in life is free). You should consider taking her off the check chain. With that neck, you cannot get an effective correction with a check chain. I'd advise using a prong or a limited slip collar. Both of these fit higher, around the ears.
I'm glad to hear you are working with a trainer, and would like to hear more about the style of training that you are doing. It kind of sounds like the trainer is working on your dog without you - I may have misunderstood that.
As to adding another dog - there are no sure bets either way. Bull types, in general, aren't the easiest dogs to have a multi dog household, but that's not an absolute. If you are a strong pack leader, you set the rules on what behavior you will accept in your dog pack. So it's your choice as to whether or not to have two dogs. Your best bet would be with a younger male of 'passive type' breeds. It's not out of the question, so don't give up hope.
One BIG however, however. Don't even think about a second dog until you are absolutely delighted with Rosie's behavior.
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Post by ashrose on May 3, 2004 7:55:02 GMT -5
I appreciate such great feedback! Let me explain a little further. The training Rosie first received was one on one training with myself, rosie, trainer and he would incorporate other dogs into our lessons. Then once he felt she had improved and realized her aggression wasn't more than showing off and trying to be the boss then we moved onto a group obedience class... Basically he would take a dog on leash and we would do exercises with them. Like we would pass each other walking with our dogs. And then we would progress to greeting each other shaking hands and showing the other dog affection while keeping them at a safe distance. Any aggression, staring, growling would result in a fast correction and NO! I would also pull her away fast and quick if she showed aggression or staring down. Then we noticed something pretty neat. He wanted me to take her off leash, something I was uncomfortable about and she ran around the training room with the other dog playing and pretty much ignoring the other dog. He thinks alot of the aggression behavior resulted in my anxiety. He said I held the leash taunt which made her feel she had a reason to be on edge. But the reason I was holding it tight was because I was scared she would lunge at the other dog. So anyway. Hope that breaks it down. The training consisted of praise and putting your hands on the dog. Their reward for good behavior was GOOD GIRL!!! And then pet her generously. No treats, no clicker. Just positive reinforcement. I am the alpha in the household and she respects it but she also tests boundaries at times. Such as being manipulative when I ask her to do something. When people come over and I put her in a sit stay she gets really excited and watches me like a hawk and the second I take my eyes off her she crawls across the floor to go say hi to the guests. When I see her do this I put her right back and tell her to stay. I am very repetitive with her which I think is pretty important in training. So...anyway that's my life with Rosie in a nutshell! p.s what is a limited slip collar?
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Post by Laura on May 3, 2004 12:15:42 GMT -5
A limited slip collar is one that can only tighten so far, such as a prong/pinch collar, or the nylon ones that also have that feature. Your trainer was correct about one thing, the tension goes right down the leash to the dog, more dog on dog aggression is caused by leashes. It sounds like you are doing everything right, just don't get discouraged, she didn't get dog aggressive overnight, and she won't get better about it overnight either ! Time, perserverence and patience will make it happen ;D.
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Post by Aussienot on May 3, 2004 17:55:44 GMT -5
It's a bit of a catch-22. You want to hold the leash tight because you fear she will lunge, but the very act of holding it tight causes her to lunge at other dogs. They even call it Leash Aggression, and it's dead simple to fix. Loose leash.
Sounds like you're on the right track with the training. Have you tried food treats?
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Post by ashrose on May 3, 2004 21:11:15 GMT -5
When you say have I tried food treats what do you mean exactly? Her training with the prof trainer consisted of only praise. But at home when I want her to do a couple of tricks (roll over, lay down, spin, shake, speak) she usually gets a treat for doing all that. She sure does listen better But because of her ALPHA behavior I try not to give treats all the time. I ask her to do tricks and things without treats so she doesnt do it soely for the treat but to please me instead.
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Post by Laura on May 3, 2004 21:28:20 GMT -5
Ah, but contrary to what we want to think, dogs don't live to please us, they do things to get STUFF ;D. Dogs are big on resources, it's part and parcel of their genetic makeup. They learn that they get good things when they do stuff for us, not because they live to hear what great dogs they are. If your boss didn't give you a paycheck every Friday, but instead told you what a great employee you are, wouldn't you get a little less motivated to do what was asked of you? Same goes for your dog . So by all means, use food (if that's what motivates her) to get her to work. And getting her to work for her STUFF works in conjunction with alpha training, all good things come from you, period. Read the article on Nothing In Life Is Free, or NILIF, here on the board, it'll give you a good perspective on how to show your dog who's really in charge .
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Post by Brooke on May 4, 2004 1:45:33 GMT -5
She of course does not mean that you should give a treat every time though. They should not *expect* it...it just turns out to be a great surprise and keeps them going other times working for more.
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Post by sibemom on May 4, 2004 4:51:56 GMT -5
That is what we are doing right now weening off the treats. Blade has a wonderful food drive and treats have made him do things I never thought he could But now that he understands what is expected I only use them when we are done working to promote a job well done. When you are still teaching them a treat for every positive thing they do is a great way to proof them and to get them to continue. As they get better at following comands on the first try then you can back off and give praise instead. Like Laura said they must know that ALL good things come from you.
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