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Newbie
Dec 7, 2004 15:08:47 GMT -5
Post by susieq on Dec 7, 2004 15:08:47 GMT -5
Replied to the thread rather than posted - few replies that way. So... I live in Valdosta, GA with 2 horses, 2 dogs, a cat, a hubbie, & a little girl. Grew up a "cat person", but Tawny, our first dog (an Aust. Shepherd) converted me. She's awesome - a bit accident prone - broken collar bone from pulling over the woodpile chewing on the little stub sticking off the piece on the bottom of the pile. She broke the ball off her femur when she didn't wait for us to help her out of the pickup as a puppy and got it caught on the step up bar - surgery to remove ball & create artificial joint. Bottom teeth kicked out when a friend brought over his horse. Vet says she's a great healer, though. Our horses haven't demonstrated any desire to acknowledge that the dogs exist - apparently far to busy eating grass, so Tawny was caught off guard. About 3 months ago were thinking about getting a puppy and oddly enough, 2 female black German Shepherd puppies mysteriously appeared. I can't believe that people still dump puppies in this day & age. Anyway, we brought them to the vet for their first shots & checkup (approx. 10 weeks old). Within 48 hours, one puppy was very, very sick. Needless to say, we were already hooked and happily, she recovered after 4 days in the hospital with IV fluids & antibiotics. We have since found Belle a forever home with a family with 3 little girls and 2 other GSD's. We kept Beauty and she is doing well EXCEPT she is now demonstrating her independence - not coming when called, climbing up to our grooming buckets that hang on the top rail of the stall gates to grab sponges, gloves, brushes, whatever she can. We're looking for a professional trainer in our area. My husband and I disagree on training techniques. He believes in firm discipline (spanking) and negative reinforcement and I don't. However, since he had dogs growing up and I didn't, I obviously don't know what I'm talking about . I think a professional with a modest approach (I also don't believe in food training) would be ideal in keeping the peace for all of us. The problem, no one in the area advertises and the vet has a strict policy not to recommend trainers - can't blame them really with lawsuits and libel suits out there. However, I'm stuck...Beauty is very good natured, great with Tawny & our daughter, great with us...I don't want to ruin her with punishment. Dogs are in the pasture with the horses during hte day - plenty of room & toys to roam and play. We bring them down to the house when we get home, play a bit, bring them in for dinner, a bit more play time outside after daughter goes to bed, and crated in the house for the night. I think it's just puppy stuff, but again, my husband & I have very different views on correcting behaviour. Any help is appreciated.
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BeTrue
Trained
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Newbie
Dec 7, 2004 15:40:08 GMT -5
Post by BeTrue on Dec 7, 2004 15:40:08 GMT -5
What type of behaviour exactly are you trying to correct? Sounds like pretty typical puppy stuff that doesn't need a firm 'correcting' in any way (if its what I'm thinking it is...such as putting stuff in his mouth and such). About how old is the pup now? And just out of curiousity, is there a reason you don't want to use food rewards? I'm a huge fan of using food rewards, but it does depend on the dog on how good it works. Some dogs work for praise alone, but most dogs need a better incentive. If your trying to teach a young puppy to not chew on certain things, simply giving a firm NO or EH, EH and replacing the item he's chewing on with a really great chew toy is often enough. If you place a specific question in the TRAINING section of the board, you might get more responses. *oh, and just wanted to add that even though someone calls themself a 'professional trainer', doesn't make them a good one or one that will suit you and your dog. Everyone has their own opinions on how things should be done. Some professional trainers use clicker training, some use training collars, some use methods that should never be used (such as hanging a dog up by the collar for wrong behavior), and some use a mixture of everything to find whats right for your dog. Your husband and you will probably have to be on the same page to get the training to work though.
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Newbie
Dec 7, 2004 16:12:12 GMT -5
Post by susieq on Dec 7, 2004 16:12:12 GMT -5
Since she was abandoned, the vet's best guess is 5-6 months at this point.
Neither of us are overly concerned by the chewing/grabbing - we understand it's puppy behaviour, but that we do need to correct it. My hubbie thinks spanking & yelling, I think no. Unfortunately, Beauty doesn't get into things when we're around - she's strictly into things when we're out of sight. Therefore it's difficult to correct by giving her something else. What we're more concerned about is her not coming when we call. She was very good about it early on but is getting worse and worse. It's not that she doesn't hear us, she'll look at us and then turn away. Since Tawny always comes when called, she hasn't learned the behaviour. We do keep them in a fenced in area, and are never left in an unfenced area unattended. But when we are in the front yard (unfenced) we like to let the dogs out with us and Beauty likes to head for the road. Not coming when called is not an option but don't want to keep her isolated in the pasture either. Not a heavily travelled road, but people do drive fast on it.
She learned "sit" within a week of being with us, but again, only sits now when she chooses. Has never completely grasped stay, but was doing much better with it when she obeyed "sit".
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BeTrue
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Dec 7, 2004 16:26:49 GMT -5
Post by BeTrue on Dec 7, 2004 16:26:49 GMT -5
Have you considered crate training her? Your pup is reaching her adolescent stage and will get more curious, and yes trying. I remember when my black lab pup went through it...it took all I could do to keep my patience. ;D A crate will come in handy by you being able to put her in there when you can't keep an eye on her. This means no worrying about where she is or what she's getting into, and keeping her safe. As for the not coming when called. I wouldn't give her the freedom of off-leash time until she's 100% reliable to come. Since she's already learning to ignore the 'come' you might want to change the word. Such as HERE or something similiar. I would start back indoors where distractions are small, and just attach her to a 6 ft. leash. Once she's good at that, you can work on it outdoors, and eventually make the leash longer. You'll also want to add distractions as you go along, so she'll come to you no matter if theres a horse walking by, if she finds treats on the ground, or whatever else might happen. I always used treats 100% all the time for a good recall command, but thats just me. You can use other rewards, such as a short game of tug, or a toss of a frisbee. Whatever your dog loves. Treats might make the commands more reliable, and can be quickly weaned off so you don't have to rely on them to make her do what you want. Thats great you rescued her...what a lucky dog.
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Newbie
Dec 7, 2004 16:38:43 GMT -5
Post by Kona on Dec 7, 2004 16:38:43 GMT -5
Hey, susieq. Sounds like you have a great place. I can just picture Tawny and the horses.
If you don't mind, here's my two cents regarding the balance between your husband's views (firm hand and spanks when needed) and yours (don't want to use food treats). When you boil all of the methods down, you reach a basic point: dogs will respond to either get a reward, or to avoid a punishment. If you don't want to punish a dog for being "bad," and you don't want to reward her with a treat for being "good," then what is left? Do you think that a 5-month old puppy wants to do exactly what you say just because it's the right thing to do?
Can you imagine you, back when you were in first grade, coming home with a really great report card? Let's give you three options:
1. You did it because your dad said that if you got one more bad grade he'd spank you. You might very well get that good grade, but how happy would you be?
2. You bring the report card to your mom, and she says, "Well naturally. I expect nothing less." How motivated would you be to do it again?
3. Your parents meet you at the door and say, "Wonderful, we're so happy! Let's all go get an ice cream sundae!"
As you've said, the little pup hasn't had any training, and you're already asking her to do recalls off leash. Many trainers consider any off-leash work to be advanced training. Go easy on the little sweetie, and yourself as well. I'd be happy to help in any way that I can. If you want to talk a bit in the Training section, that would be great, too.
(p.s. - To all: I was just trying to make a simple point using over-simplifications. Think of it as a metaphor rather than anthropomorphizing.)
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Newbie
Dec 7, 2004 17:45:25 GMT -5
Post by susieq on Dec 7, 2004 17:45:25 GMT -5
I see your point, but I want to clarify - I am opposed to "treat" training, not positive reinforcement (praise, toy, play, scratch). I am a huge proponent of positive reinforcement (I've used it to help my neurotic Arabian become a reasonably calm riding horse). I feel the same basic principles can/should apply. But, just as I wouldn't smack my horse around, I don't think dogs should be smacked around either. A horse's natural instinct is to flee if they are "manhandled" - I am concerned that Beauty will learn to bite in reaction to a hand unexpectedly coming at her - a problem I don't want.
She is crate trained, we have a 6 x 10 kennel outdoors for when we first got her & her sister (they could squeeze out through the pasture fence) and we put her in a large crate indoors at night. However, I always thought that keeping a young dog cooped up would make them more destructive.
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Newbie
Dec 7, 2004 18:04:36 GMT -5
Post by Kona on Dec 7, 2004 18:04:36 GMT -5
Gotcha, but my point was as a small child, would you have preferred praise by your mom and dad, or praise accompanied by ice cream? And by the time you were in high school or college, you could have done without the ice cream just for approval and because of your self-discipline. The same type of thing is done with puppies as they transition from the learning stage to daily reinforcement. Treats are just used to teach.
Anyway, not trying to slam you! I get into "teaching" mode way too easily.
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Newbie
Dec 7, 2004 19:13:02 GMT -5
Post by Nicole on Dec 7, 2004 19:13:02 GMT -5
Welcome Susieq. I agree with the other posters. I firmly believe that the only thing that spanking is going to teach your pup is that he cannot trust you and as you stated, that he will shy from and/or end up biting your hand and possibly the hands of strangers. Dogs do not understand spanking as a correction and I do hope that you can convince your husband against doing this. Your pups are babies. You have to supervise them and make their area puppy proof. If the pup gets into something, it is your fault for not watching them, not the pups. How else will they learn. If my pup went for the table leg, he would get a stuffie shoved in his mouth and then a good boy for chewing the stuffie. You have to teach them what they can and cannot chew on. Until the dogs learn this...when they mature a bit...you should not let them out of your sight (catch the behavior before it happens with a hey or no and redirect to a proper object) or make sure that they are somewhere where they cannot damage your things. You wouldn't let a two year old child roam free in a room that isn't babyproofed. Your pups are like two year old children. There is nothing wrong with using treats as long as they are not abused or used to bribe. A job well done can occassioally get a yummy treat....or a good boy...or a throw of a ball. And you should never give the come command unless you can enforce it (a long lead) because you are just teaching the dog that it is OK to ignore you. Responding to come even with a tug on the long line should get the jackpot reward. It is a command that can save your dogs life. But the pup must be reliable 100% on lead before you even consider attempting this off leash.
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Newbie
Dec 7, 2004 22:22:18 GMT -5
Post by Brooke on Dec 7, 2004 22:22:18 GMT -5
There is a very distinct line between " discipline" and a correction although they are often confused. Spanking a dog ...you are taking a big gamble. You have a larger chance of creating bigger problems with hand shyness and lack of trust than correcting them. There are just better ways to correct a problem in the canine world. You are going to have a very hard time teaching a dog to come to you if it thinks there is a possiblity it will get spanked. That is the largest problem I find in dogs that are disciplined by being spanked. I would much rather see the dogs wearing a lead at all times. If a correction is needed, pop the leash just enough to get the point acrossed. Doesn't have to be tramatic. Even just a grab of the scruff (not even pulling off the floor) along with a CALM firm "no" will be so much more effective. Start an NILIF program... these will get the best results you can ask for... I don't use treats in a lot of my training but I wouldn't rule it out for all. Training should be fun. There should be a reward for good behavior and a job well done...just as humans need things to keep them going and the morale up, but I agree... leave the bribing out.
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Newbie
Dec 8, 2004 1:50:33 GMT -5
Post by Aussienot on Dec 8, 2004 1:50:33 GMT -5
The question is What does your dog think is Positive Reinforcement?
If your dog will work for praise or a pat, great! Use it. But don't count on it. I'm lucky - my Labrador will work for praise. She is soft as butter and one in a million. A Positive Reinforcer needs to be special, something out of the ordinary, something the dog is motivated to work for. Are you only going to praise and pat your dog while training?
If your dog will work for a game of tug or a chase of the ball, or tearing the fur of a squeaky mouse, great! But don't count on it. It took me months to get Finn excited about toys as a reward. Toys are harder to use in training, because you have to stop to give the dog the toy, then you have to take the toy away (or in my case, the random bits of fur) to continue training. It takes quite a bit of coordination and anticipation, which is hard to do when you're all tied up training the dog.
Food is the great leveler. Most dogs see it as Positive Reinforcement. It can be used to lure into position in the Teaching stage, used as a reward in the training stage, and used as a random secondary motivator in the proofing stage.
So figure out what revs your dog up, what makes her show interest, what she is willing to work for, and use that as your Motivator. It may be praise, but don't count on it. No one advocates bribing the dog, so what you are thinking of treat training may be entirely different than what we are talking about.
And Kona, I take it that you've met my mother. Answer 2 was right on the money ;D
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Newbie
Dec 8, 2004 10:17:14 GMT -5
Post by susieq on Dec 8, 2004 10:17:14 GMT -5
Okay, I'm convinced to try the treats in addition to other forms of pos. reinforcement. I also can understand the long lead for teaching come. The only unanswered question is this - Beauty is up in the barn/pasture with Tawny (our other dog) and 2 horses all day while my husband and I are at work. We cannot monitor her behaviour while we are out. That is when she gets into things in the barn - she's chewed shampoo bottles, sponges, gloves, brushes, etc. We put these items up high, but as she continues growing, she'll probably have a higher reach than I do (I'm vertically challanged). We have put her in the outdoor kennel for a few days after she has had a particularly destructive day in the barn. I really hate to confine her all day 5 days a week because we work. As I stated before, she does not get into things when we're around - if we're up in the barn, she's underfoot or out playing. But in the 45 minutes we go down to the house for lunch, she's a whirlwind of activity. She knows she's bad because she'll skulk around, but we simply can't catch her in the act. It almost seems more intentional than "puppy" behaviour. How can this be corrected? I'd hate to see her kennel become punishment - occasionally we need her to be there for her safety and my sanity.
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BeTrue
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Dec 8, 2004 12:56:46 GMT -5
Post by BeTrue on Dec 8, 2004 12:56:46 GMT -5
We cannot monitor her behaviour while we are out. That is when she gets into things in the barn - she's chewed shampoo bottles, sponges, gloves, brushes, etc. Which one sounds more cruel? 1. Your dog being in his crate with a couple chew toys and a comfy blanket while you are away or 2. getting sick after eating shampoo, eating something toxic....and so on. How long will the dog be left alone? Keeping him locked away for hours upon hours isn't right, but generally, a crate is the safest and best place for a destructive dog to be. When I had the black lab, I crated him up until he was a year old. After that, I slowly got him used to staying in the house alone, by blocking off certain areas and providing plenty of stuffed kongs and other safe chew toys. It does seem like they know they're doing bad, doesn't it? But in reality, their 'sulky' attitude is usually picked up because of OUR attitude. Think back to how you react when you see the mess she's made. I'm sure your not too happy, and she's most likely picking up on the fact that somethings not right. Oh no, its not punishment at all. Its exactly what you said at the end of your sentence...its meant for 'her safety and your sanity'. You shouldn't place her there AFTER you've seen her do something wrong, but rather BEFORE she even does it. Prevention is the key for redirecting a destructive puppy. *edited to say that when I 'crated the black lab pup', it was for short periods of time, and only when he couldn't be supervised. He learned to love his crate anyways, and it was his 'security place' which he could go in and out of as he wanted.
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Newbie
Dec 8, 2004 17:23:27 GMT -5
Post by Aussienot on Dec 8, 2004 17:23:27 GMT -5
Your pup is going to amuse herself when you are not around, and the things dogs find amusing most people don't find funny at all. For most behavior problems, you can Train, or you can Contain.
You are not there to Train, so that is not an otion. You must catch her while she is still doing it for her to realise why you are correcting her. Even 3 seconds after she stops, it's too late. Correct while it happens or you've missed the chance.
So that sort of leaves Contain as your best option. Going back to the child anology, would you leave a toddler alone in the barn unsupervised, and expect the baby to use restraint and good adult human judgement in leaving stuff alone? Your dog is never going to have "common sense" by human standard, or be able to differentiate your stuff from her stuff.
Use a crate, or build a nice kennel. Give her a space where she can go and have safe fun when you can't watch her. A stuffed Kong will happily occupy her for hours, and a good raw bone can last for days. Both of you need some down time in your days.
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Newbie
Dec 8, 2004 18:17:02 GMT -5
Post by Kona on Dec 8, 2004 18:17:02 GMT -5
Funny how this is turning into a thread about how to properly raise a puppy. Rather than continue in that direction SusieQ, I would rather applaud you for your efforts, and urge you to get a good book on puppy training and start with a consistent program ASAP. The pup is getting confusing signals at this point, but more importantly she's developing bad habits that are easy to avoid now but will be a real pain in the neck to correct later.
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