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Post by willow on Mar 15, 2007 19:00:59 GMT -5
If I am understanding your method correctly Kaos, you take the dog around another dog, but stay far enough away so the dog does not react. What then? Heap on the "goodies" because he did not react? How does the dog connect his not reacting to the other dog with getting the reward? So then if I understand correctly, also, you gradually get closer, not going too fast/getting too close too soon so he will not react aggressively, until the dog is not reacting even when up close, and this is where the "conditioning" comes in? He is being "conditioned" not to react to the other dog. So what is the object of giving the good things? He doesn't know why he is getting them and he should already know you are the "giver of good things," but what he isn't learning is that aggression is not what you want of him. So...if you make the mistake of going too fast and the dog reacts negatively to the other dog...do you simply go back to a distance where he doesn't react, and reward him? How can anydog possibly figure out on his own that the reward is because he didn't react to the other dog, unless he knows, from how you react to his aggression, that it is not what you want? He has no idea why you went back (except that perhaps he should be more leery of strange dogs?) or why he is getting the reward, except that perhaps he must be the Alpha, because the Alpha gets to eat first! It just makes more sense to me, to take him to a point where he reacts, show him by voice/touch that is not what you want him to do, and when he is calm, reward him...but with affection, not food or toys, because I also don't want my dogs to trade one neurotic behavior for another, such as obcessing over treats/toys! But that is another debate subject.
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Post by willow on Mar 15, 2007 19:08:42 GMT -5
Ann, you have brought out some good points/questions, but I am still not over my cold and have to go rest now, so we will continue this tomorrow? ;D
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Post by willow on Mar 15, 2007 19:40:10 GMT -5
Kaos, I'm not underestimating the power of classical conditioning in animal training. It can be useful in some instances, but I think it is a big mistake to rely on it to train or perhaps "re-train" is a better word, an animal in such a serious area as aggression, whether it is a dog or ape or rat. But then, maybe I am wrong, and it will be shown to be very successful at re-programing an aggressive dog, but I would have to have a trainer demonstrate it to me with many dogs of different breeds and types of aggression. Which brings up another question. Once a dog is conditioned not to react aggressively to other dogs, does he than salvitate in anticipation of all the "good things" he is going to get whenever he sees another dog? If he doesn't....how do we know it's working?
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Post by kaos on Mar 15, 2007 20:14:09 GMT -5
Willow - sorry about your cold, hope you feel better soon.
Ok, I guess the aim for me is to change the emotional response the dog has to another dog. For some reason, be it fear, dominance, resource guarding or whatever the presence of another dog triggers a state of adrenalin fuelled reactivity. This can obviously manifest in different ways, from nervousness, to lunging, pulling, barking, growling, snapping etc. What I find preferable is to aim for a dog that remains calm on sighting another dog and no longer goes into the emotional state described above.
Another option is to aim for a dog that whilst it might still feel the same emotional response and adrenalin fuelled state , will supress the actual undesirable behaviour. Punishment can for some dogs be effective in supressing the behaviour, but is highly unlikely to give the dog a better opinion of the presence of other dogs.
When trying to achieve a change in the response of the dog, it is not a great idea to allow him to get into the adrenalin fuelled frenzied state and rehearse the very behaviour you want to become extinct. Adrenalin can stay in the dogs system, making them more reactive and stressed for the following few days. Also, once in this state of arousal animals are not highly receptive to learning. By introducing the presence of other dogs gradually in a controlled and non-threatening way to the reactive dog (over a number of short sessions probably - it's not always a quick process) and by rewarding calm behaviour you avoid the arousal altogether and start to show the dog a new way to behave in this situation.
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Post by kaos on Mar 15, 2007 20:17:52 GMT -5
Hey Willow, I am not suggesting that positive methods are a guaranteed cure all for any aggressive dog - aggression is a complex subject and I think a dangerous one to generalise on, but I can certainly confirm that it can and has worked for individual dogs. Many well respected trainers have documented case studies as well. I don't know about salivate, but dogs will certainly learn to calmly focus on the handler in the presence of another dog rather than fixating on the dog and flying into a state of arousal as they would previously have done.
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Post by kaos on Mar 15, 2007 20:24:58 GMT -5
Personally with my own dogs who don't have aggression issues I have consciously used conditioning techniques successfully. I think the most similar of which is to prevent the barking and rushing to the window behaviour on seeing or hearing a car arriving. I sometimes take them with me to the office, where there are cars coming and going all day whereas these are a rarity at home. I just can't have the barking whilst there may be phone calls and meetings going on, and have successfully extinguished it. Previously the arrival of the car triggered an undesirable state of arousal, now the dogs stay calm, and look at me without the need to issue a 'down' or 'stay' cue. Whats more, it was easy ;D (note: obviously aggression issues are not going to be easy - not trying to imply that)
Ironically with a previous dog many years ago I was driven mad by similar behaviour and spent years trying to prevent it with only partial success using punishment.
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Post by kaos on Mar 15, 2007 20:36:36 GMT -5
Kaos, I'm not underestimating the power of classical conditioning in animal training. It can be useful in some instances, but I think it is a big mistake to rely on it to train or perhaps "re-train" is a better word, an animal in such a serious area as aggression, whether it is a dog or ape or rat. Interestingly many people actually initially try positive methods when punishment has not worked for an aggressive dog. If your dog responds you have actually created a safer dog since it is no longer feeling aroused on seeing another dog, rather than feeling that way but relying on self- control and fear of punishment in order to supress the aggressive behaviour. Which brings up another question. Once a dog is conditioned not to react aggressively to other dogs, does he than salvitate in anticipation of all the "good things" he is going to get whenever he sees another dog? If he doesn't....how do we know it's working? Of course the 'good stuff' needn't necessarily be food, and can also be phased out when the new behaviour pattern is established.
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Post by sibemom on Mar 16, 2007 6:52:44 GMT -5
Ok well I am going to describe what I do right or wrong this is what I do with a dog that has aggresion issues. It has always worked, and just a comment about people who go to positive methods when corrections have not worked, I would bet the corrections were not FIRM ENOUGH, JMHO. I do NOT work my way closer over time, I work my way all the way up to the object that triggers the dog in each and every session. I KNOW some would say that is pushing the dog fast but I disagree. If I pay attention and the closer I get and I correct each and every time the dog shows aggresive behavior and then get right up to the thing that triggers it and keep correcting within that one session, I do believe I will win this battle in correcting the behavior. My feeling on working at a distance to desensitize the dog is still leaving a choice for the dog to make, and that would be as an example say I am working 30 feet away from the object of aggresion, the dog reacts I correct etc... then I try working 20 feet away the dog reacts I correct, then the day comes when I want to be within 10 feet, but the dog balks, because I have already conditioned it to react, get corrected and be taken away. So what if this dog is one of extreme dominance, and never wants to comply with my request The dog is going to learn that I am not willing to push it to the extent of being controlled working close to the object of aggresion because I have taken TO MUCH TIME. When I do it the way I described by the time the session is over the dog that is being conditioned is laying submissivly in front of the object of aggresion with NO BALKING. The only time I might change this is with a dog that has a more fear based issue, but still there would be no room for the dog to make the decision about whether it wants to be 30 feet or 5 feet away. THAT IS MY DECISION. I KNOW many will disagree but when it comes to this behavior which I don't think Laura's dog has that bad of a case, I want it stopped NOW and I want it to NEVER NEVER NEVER rear it's head again. When the dog does exactly as I request in the time I am allowing, then yes verbal praise and affection over flow from me. I do not think any positive measures will cure a dog of aggresion and I do think that the owner is setting themselves up for a surprise later on. OK now I have to go to the oral surgeon Thanks for starting a debate to get this board ALIVE AGAIN
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Post by willow on Mar 16, 2007 9:43:45 GMT -5
Kaos, like you I have never owned an aggressive dog, so I don't have first hand experience, but I do feel that mostaggression, whether it is fear, dominance, etc. gets out of hand because the owner does not take the necessary steps at the first indication that there is a problem to stop it. I say this for at least a couple of reasons. First of all, I have taught ob for many years, so I have seen a lot of different dogs and owners and their problems. In every aggression case I have seen, it has simply been because the owner did not let the dog know that what it was doing was unacceptable. If you take a good look at owner/dog relationships you will quickly see when the dog is the one who is in control. These are usually the dogs that come into class highly excited and out of control, dragging the 6'2" 200# owner around as if he were a rag doll! The dog barks/lunges at the other dogs and the owner.........does nothing. Just turns and says, "I don't know why he has started suddenly doing that. He has never done that before." When I question them and watch, you can see that it did not "happen suddenly", but has been escalating since they got the dog. Yes, the owner is the "giver of good things", but that is all he is! I have also been in several breed rescues and have seen what happens as a result of when a dog becomes aggressive. First of all: The rescues Ann and I were in would not take in aggressive dogs. Period. So when they came into the rescue there was no indication the dog had any aggressive tendencies. They would then go to their "foster homes". Now, anyone who has ever been a volunteer in a breed rescue knows that probably up wards of 90% of the volunteers today feel as you do, that dogs should not be physically corrected, nor should they ever be subjected to a "training" collar of any kind. If the dogs are taught anything, it is perhaps the very basic ob commands, and they are taught using food. The dogs are generally allowed free roam of the house most of the time, although if the dog is not "crate trained", most volunteers will teach them to go into a crate. The dogs are all allowed up on the furniture/beds. If a male dog comes in and he "marks" around the house, they put "belly bands" or whatever they are called on them, to prevent this. (My BC, Buddy tried this once on a table on my screen porch. I went towards him and said, "NO" and he never did it again). Most dogs go on to find loving homes and continue to do well, but there is getting to be more and more aggression problems in the rescues. I have seen it escalate in the years I was in rescue work, and I firmly believe it is due to the change in training methods, where now it is no longer "politically correct" to even tell the dog "NO". When a dog in a rescue becomes aggressive, it is immediately put down. There are also becoming more and more dogs who were fine when they left the rescues, and then a few weeks later we would get a call that "the dog bit me/my husband when (we) tried to make it get off the couch/bed". The first question we would ask is: "What did you do when the dog bit." I can honestly say that in all the cases I asked/heard about, the new owner said one of two things: 1. I just left him/her up there until he/she came off on their own, because I was afraid of being bitten again, or 2. I got a treat and tried to lure them off, but it didn't work. They growled at me. I believe most cases of aggression could be prevented if the foster home/new owner were in control and treated the dogs like dogs. One more thing and then I will shut up! I have a now 10 yo Australian Shepherd I adopted from a rescue. She has never been out and out aggressive, and has never bitten anyone, but I believe she could be "taught" to be aggressive very easily. Because of this I watch her closely when stranger's come to our house and only allow a couple of barks and then I verbally correct her. She is never afraid of strangers, but greets people with "quiet friendlyness"....keeping one eye on me for my reaction. After the initial greeting, she goes about her " doggie business" and only goes to them if they call her over. If she does overstep her bounds and goes over to them without being invited, I tell her, "No", and she goes away. Buddy, my BC had a "resource guarding"problem with another male BC I fostered. He tried to "resource guard" me. The other BC did not back down and there could have been BIG problems. I was unsure of how to handle the situation, because I had only had Buddy for a short time and was still learning about him, and of course, I knew practically nothing about the foster dog, and since the other dog was a foster, I turned to the rescue for help. I couldn't believe what I was told to do! Do not let Buddy and BJ together or to even LOOK at each other. Keep one crated at all times, take them outside separatly etc., and keep the crate where they could not see one another etc. I was also told to get the book "Mine"....I believe it is by Jean Donaldson? I was also severly "scolded" by the head of the rescue (remember that, Ann?) for letting the two dogs together in the first place, and that made me very angry, because on numerous occassions other volunteers had contacted the rescue for help with just the same problem and they were not scolded or told to do what she told me to do! I did send for a couple of Jean's books, but in the meantime I did what I would have done if BJ were my dog. I did keep Buddy on leash for a couple of days so I could control him, and I let the dogs be together. If there were any "looks" or "growls" I corrected them verbally...fortunately most BC's do not need physical corrections unless the problem has already gotten out of hand. In two days the problem was "solved". One last thing: No matter which method you use, with long standing aggression problems, even if the dog can be "conditioned" to ignore other dogs, that does not mean that the dog could then be let loose with a "pack" of strange dogs and they would automatically get along, but I also believe if the dog respects you as his leader and knows you are in control of the situation, that too can be accomplished. I hope you are both having a great day! Dentist Ann: Ouch.
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Post by kaos on Mar 18, 2007 23:23:01 GMT -5
Willow - I know what you are getting at. Many aggression and other issues I would agree are lack of training / poor handling. I think your comment to the original post that the worse thing you could do was nothing was right, the dog does need leadership at this point. Where I would differ is that because you opt not to use physical punishment it does not mean that the dog is allowed to do whatever it likes and is out of control. That is not using positive training as I understand it, it is just failure to train.
I agree that on lead and off lead aggression are two different issues for a dog, and dealing with one doesn't guarantee results with the other scenario necessarily.
I too for the record would not have kept the two dogs separate in the guarding you situation except when I was not there to supervise, but I guess the rescue was erring on the side of caution which I can understand.
I do think there are some dogs that are aggressive for reasons other than a lack of discipline from the handler, and believe not all can be controlled if you use enough force. The detailed account in 'Bringing light to shadow' I think falls into this category and was a very interesting case study in my opinion. Nobody could accuse them of not using harsh enough punishment initially that is for sure.
Edited to say that actually it was Emma Parsons 'Ben' I was thinking of in Click to Calm - not Pams Shadow.
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Post by willow on Mar 19, 2007 9:35:59 GMT -5
Certainly I agree, Kaos, that there are "those" dogs that seem to be genetically hard wired to be aggressive, but these are, I believe, in the minority. I also believe if the aggression is due to genetics, the owner may be able to manage it, but I don't feel it can ever be totally reversed no matter what is done, and the dog can never be trustworthy.
I believe Michelle, who has posted here, had such a dog, although to the day she decided to put him down, she still felt she was the one who failed the dog by not doing something right, but we will never know. It is very sad.
I also believe that Cesar has a pack of such dogs at his facility and he cannot adopt them out. However, I also think he feels that by the time he got these dogs they were beyond help. He has gotten them to the point where they can live peaceably together as a pack, but they would most assuredly revert back to their former aggressive state if adopted out to anyone other than the most experienced and successful in handling this type of dog.
Also, Cesar takes the worse cases to his facility for weeks/months of what he calls "boot camp" so they learn how to be a dog and be peaceable around other dogs, but I also question if these dogs can ever be trusted around strange dogs, because there is also the "thing" of dogs/wolves not naturally accepting strange dogs/wolves into their "pack".
Even Cesar's "rehabilitated pack" will react aggressively to a new dog if it is not submissive to them when it comes in.
As to classical/operant conditioning, as I have stated I don't disbelieve it. In Alaska where there is a lot of hunting, the bears have been "conditioned" to react to a rifle shot. It means " dinner" to them and this is posing a dangerous problem for the hunter's, because the bears are challenging the hunter's for their downed game. It's sure a lot easier for a bear to steal a meal from a hunter than hunt down and kill his own!
I just question whether, once a dog has been "conditioned" to react aggressively, if any kind of counter conditioning can completely reverse aggression so that it never rears its ugly head again.
I guess I would have to have a trainer expert in reversing aggression using classical/operant conditioning take the dogs Cesar could not completely rehabilitate to be trustworthy in all situations, with all dogs and successfully rehabilitate them before I would become a convert. ;D
I also "worry" about the dog who may be successfully rehabilitated, but is thrown into a pack of strange dogs where he may be subjected to other aggressive dogs!
To me that would be the cruelest thing that could be done to the dog, but I am sure a lot of ignorant owner's, feeling their dog is now safe to put with other dogs, does not take into account that perhaps there are other dogs that are not safe to be around.
That's why I feel dogs/puppies should never be "let loose" in a strange pack, but we have had that discussion here a couple of times too. ;D
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Post by willow on Mar 19, 2007 11:55:45 GMT -5
Ann, IMO you are addressing the aggression issue correctly by taking the dog to the point of reacting to the other dog and correcting a negative reaction. Of course positive trainer's do not agree with this, and that is why there are the discussions/disagreements there are. I am thinking of Aussie's most recent post about what to and what not to post. That pretty much sums it up in a nutshell, as they say. This whole discussion is pretty futile and these discussions on different training methods a waste of time.
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Post by kaos on Mar 19, 2007 15:11:55 GMT -5
Certainly I agree, Kaos, that there are "those" dogs that seem to be genetically hard wired to be aggressive, but these are, I believe, in the minority. I also believe if the aggression is due to genetics, the owner may be able to manage it, but I don't feel it can ever be totally reversed no matter what is done, and the dog can never be trustworthy. I just question whether, once a dog has been "conditioned" to react aggressively, if any kind of counter conditioning can completely reverse aggression so that it never rears its ugly head again. The two detailed accounts I have read of very serious aggression cases dealt with by very successful positive trainers suggest that you can make huge improvements to their reactivity. Pam Dennison had a border collie who was severely human aggressive. After intensive work with him she was able to successfully compete at obedience competitions and use him for demonstrations. She was able eventually to have other people safely handle him, and collect him out of his crate etc. He had clearly learned to like and trust people for the first time. Was he completely and totally 'cured'? Nope, not in my opinion. I would be extremely hesitant to pronounce any seriously aggressive dog 'cured' no matter what method was used to work with that dog. But, I would still feel safer around a dog with aggression issues that had been worked on to condition a different emotional response to people / dogs than one that had simply had the growl or bite 'shut down' through harsh punishment. Ann & Willow - I am glad you have had success with aggression issues and managed to help dogs / handlers even if we differ on preferred methods.
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Post by Aussienot on Apr 5, 2007 22:33:49 GMT -5
I have been lurking on this thread due to time poverty, but I'm going to jump in and say that I find these discussions interesting and thought-provoking. We may have to agree to disagree at some point, but I don't want to stop these types of discussions altogether.
I don't agree with everything posted by everybody, but to be able to think through and articulate why I think differently is good for the soul.
I confess I have changed a lot in the way I manage and train dogs in the past few years. Some of this was dog-specific necessity, some of it was from seeing what worked in my obedience classes, some of it was because I heard about a better idea and learned from someone else, like the people here. Some of it was because thinking simply advances as time passes. So, bring it on.
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