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Post by masha on Jul 23, 2004 3:21:56 GMT -5
Hi This morning our newspaper had a story about an old man who was killed by a group of Pit Bull terriers. In the past two years, off hand, I can remember four seperate cases in which adults were killed by these dogs. (I live in South Africa, by the way!) In each case the people owned several Pit Bulls and as far as I could tell, basically kept them in their backyard and never let them out.
The example this morning made me think, because a representative of the Pit Bull society or whatever they are called, went to see the dogs and said "I would leave my son with them, theres nothing wrong with these dogs". What had happened in this case was that the grandfather of the family had gone out to feed the dogs and something got out of hand...
Now that really makes me wonder because I've read many statements like this by Pit Bull owners, that they are no more aggresive than other dogs. But off hand I can think of only one incident where other dog breeds were involved in this kind of attack, and in that case it was a feral dog pack composed of all kinds of breeds.
I dont know what its like in America, or wherever most of the rest of you live, but here a lot of people keep big fierce dog breeds like Rotweilers, German Shepherds and so on simply for security, not trained or anything, just prowling around behind their high fences. Never get taken out for a walk... My husband says that some dogs are like firearms - you should only be allowed to own one if you have demonstrated that you can handle it.
Are some breeds too dangerous to own as pets?
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Post by sibemom on Jul 23, 2004 5:58:48 GMT -5
This is a good debate topic. My feeling on this subject it that it's not the dogs, it's the irresponsable owners who never train them that cause this type of situation to happen. ANY breed of dog could be capable of this if left untrained and to run with a pack. There are some breeds that require more strict management, like the Pit, because if left to their own devices this occurs. It is a sad reality that certain breeds have gotten a bad reputation because of the stupid people who own them. I have met serval Pits and they were very nice dogs, even though I am not extremly fond of the breed the owners took the time to train and socialze them which is exactly what they need. Rot's by nature are very sweet, so are GSD's, but when left untrained your right they are like owning a firearm.
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Post by fireworksinjuly on Jul 23, 2004 8:29:20 GMT -5
I think to add to that certain breeds are more susceptible (sp) to bad owners. People found the weakness’ in dogs, (i.e. Pits can be easily trained to fight, attack, etc. They wont really do it unless taught or provoked. Its not inherent in them- the owners cause it to happen- in most cases) Sure you can train a Samoyed to fight but it would take a lot more work then a Pit, People have realized this and "capitolized" on it causing a good breed or two to get a bad name.
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Post by masha on Jul 26, 2004 2:29:31 GMT -5
"I think to add to that certain breeds are more susceptible (sp) to bad owners. "
Yup, I must agree with that. But are pit bulls still bred for their aggresive traits, or are the breeders making some kind of effort to breed for calmer dogs? After all, I always understood that they were originally specifically bred for their fighting ability and aggresion. Dog fight dogs.
And maybe they are not the kind of dogs that one should own more than one of at a time? In every case where there has been someone attacked over here, it has been when the people own 4 or 5 of them.
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Post by fireworksinjuly on Jul 26, 2004 9:01:30 GMT -5
"But are pit bulls still bred for their aggresive traits, or are the breeders making some kind of effort to breed for calmer dogs?"
That would depend on the breeder. A good responsable, reputable breeder would do their best to keep the standard while breeding calm dogs. A bad breeder or one into it for the sole purpose of breeding dogs to fight would breed their agressive traits.
Unfortunatly not everyone researches enough and may un-knowingly buy a dog from a bad breeder who pretends to be good and reputable.
Also not all of a dogs behavior issues are from the parents or the breeder. The owner plays a large roll in this. Even the calmest sweetest dog, with the wrong owner, can be changed.
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Post by ripley on Jul 29, 2004 22:04:50 GMT -5
It's not only the people who don't train their dogs, but the people who don't realize what Pit Bulls were BRED to do: Fight.
That fighting instinct is always there. The same as the herding instinct is always present in Border Collies. (I've never met a BC without that "super-stare")
Pit Bulls require a firm hand and LOTS of socialization. IMO, no dog should live in a yard with no human contact. That will make ANY dog wary of humans and most dogs will become insanely territorial and aggressive. Pits are wonderful animals if they are kept in the house, where people HAVE to give them some attention. No dog should be taken in with the intention of it being low maintenance.
Too many people are uneducated, and when they really shouldn't own a dog AT ALL, they buy a breed that is potentially lethal in the wrong hands. It's not the dog's fault, it's the owner's fault. And if the dog came from a breeder, it's the breeder's fault for selling it to a family that was obviously unprepared or unwilling to give the dog the place in the 'pack' that all dogs need.
Pit Bulls ARE more dangerous. They have a lethal bite and are very strong. they are very dangerous, if they are trained or allowed to bite (or if they just have poor temperament), but it doesn't mean they aren't suitable pets when treated properly.
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Post by Brooke on Jul 29, 2004 22:23:20 GMT -5
I can agree with that.
So another question would be... I guess, what should today's standard for breeding Pits be? We talk about bad breeders so often but what regarding Pit's constitutes bad breeding? Breeding FOR "gameness" or more for lack of drive?
If you breed for lack of drive to "better" a family companion pet and attempt to make it safer you are attempting to dispose of the standard right? Which is what so many people get upset about...ruining the standard. And who knows what that would bring anyway?
I'm not sure that their breeding is always the problem but it's more of how the Pit's are trained and handled. But BECAUSE there are so many (your choice of word) people out there who don't know their head from a door knob let alone know how to handle a Pit... is it better to see a Breeder, breed an unusually mello, low drive, animal/dog friendly pit than to breed to standard?
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Post by ripley on Jul 29, 2004 22:42:06 GMT -5
the breeding of a milder Pit Bull is already being done. It's not from fighting lines, therefore its instinct to fight is lessened. NOT eliminated. I don't think it'll ever go away unless the whole foundation of the breed is destroyed.
If Pits are bred to act like Golden Retrievers, it'll be a whole different breed. I like PB's because of their persistent nature, and they just wouldn't be the same without that.
Instead of breeding the dogs into love-everybody marshmallows, Breeders should take responsiblity for the dogs they sell and, more importantly, the PEOPLE they sell them to. Whatever happened to home checks and extensive screening? (All breeders will never do that, but it'd solve the majority of the PB problems)
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Post by sibemom on Jul 30, 2004 3:33:10 GMT -5
See this is what I have always thought. To breed out the normal natures of a dog is foolish BUT to be responsiable and only breed bloodlines with proven tempermant and manegable drive would be optimum. It's like with several breeds that are considered to be more on the aggresive side and have now made the hit list of insurance companies. Some dogs are high maintence, and take a great deal more handleing. I said it before Pit's are not my favorite breed but not because I do not think they can be good family pets. The ones that I do know have been well trained, are not aggresive to people or other dogs. The morons who just get them to look cool or to just leave them run around at will on their own have no clue as to the danger they are allowing to happen. This could go for several breeds not just Pit's. Dogs when left to their own devices will revert back to their natural instincts and in the case of the Pit Bull that would be to fight. I have seen several breeds of dogs not Black Balled like the Pit who were never handled, never had any human interaction and they were DANGEROUS. I still feel that as long as a dog has no serious mental defect it can be handled, but you must be willing to put the time and effort into it and be well aware of what the breed is capapble of.
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Post by masha on Jul 30, 2004 7:27:19 GMT -5
So quite a few of you seem to think that the breeders are at least partly responsible for the pit bulls (unfair?) reputation - whether it is because the dont breed carefully, or dont screen their customers. In South Africa, probably most people have dogs with the idea that they will provide security. Certainly, that is one of the big reasons why we have two big fierce looking dogs, who do their job with gusto while still being loving and good pets. But every time I walk around I see dogs that obviously NEVER leave their properties and are quite clearly completely untrained. I agree that any of these breeds would be dangerous. I really think that in the end the owners need to take responsibility - especially if the dog is by nature or breed more aggresive than other breeds. I just thought it was a bit rich that this lady from the pit bull society goes and says "I would leave my son with these dogs, there's nothing wrong with them" when they have just killed some one. I mean, what do they have to do for her to say "there is a problem here" ?
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Post by Richard on Jul 30, 2004 12:07:30 GMT -5
I have no use for pit bulls either....sorry, just an opinion of mine. I guess from my experience and the stuff I have to deal with at work, I don't hear the good side of this dog anytime. I'm sure somewhere out there, there are resposible owners and well trained pit bulls....sadly, you don't see/hear of many.
If you could take this down to a simple mathmatical equation, I figure it would look like this:
1-Sloppy, Careless, Greedy Breeder + 1- Ignorant, Lazy, Irresponsible Owner + 1 - Nasty, A$$kicking, Headstrong, Purebred Whackjob Dog with ZERO training = TROUBLE for EVERYONE
Everything that has been discussed here can be actually, and quite rightly too, applied to many breeds of dogs and their owners....lets not forget those little razorblades with fur many don't feel need any training...they can be nasty, vicious and their owners have as many excuses for their behaviours as Carter has Liverpills!!!
The only difference with the pitbull, no excuse can cover for the potential damage it can do to people, other animals or property...but then again, this statement is applicable to many breeds of dogs left in the hands of incomptent breeders/owners (see math equation above).
-Richard
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Post by sibemom on Jul 31, 2004 11:18:11 GMT -5
I am in total agreement with you Richard. I give LOTS of credit to those that own Pit's and OB train them socialize them and are aware of what the breed is capable of, BUT I would like to BEAT THE CRAP out of the ones who only get them for the status. It is a shame that so many good dogs have to be feared because of a few owners who just do not care and only want the fame of having a dog known for aggresion. I knew someone who collected Shep's and Rot's and used them for patroling his junkyard You know the typical junk yard dog syndrom. These dogs were deadly because he never trained them except to beat them and make them mean. He fed them at least what I was told Gun Powder and kept them so mean even he could not handle them. One day they got loose and had to be shot by the Sheriffs Dept. It was a crying shame because in the right hands these dogs could have been wonderful pets. The man was charged with animal cruelty and also something else to the effect of harboring dangerous animals that posed a threat to humans. What a waste
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Post by ripley on Jul 31, 2004 17:44:20 GMT -5
I think it's like with any dogs.. In Arizona, people buy Pit Bulls and IMMEDIATELY tie their 7 week old puppy out on a 25# chain. They give the dog a dog-house and food/water, but they never touch the dogs. Of course, even the best-tempered dog will become unmanageable and eventually vicious. I also agree with K9Rocky. It's sad, but there seem to be more "BAD" Pits than good ones. They also seem to be the most commonly abused breed.
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