Levi
puppy
Posts: 15
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WHY!
Feb 19, 2004 11:28:03 GMT -5
Post by Levi on Feb 19, 2004 11:28:03 GMT -5
I hope no mishap occures to anyone that decides a pronged collar is safe 100% or 99% of the time when it is on the dog.
Just because I'm in the minority here doesn't mean I'm wrong, nor does it mean product mishaps can happen.
I am not a novice in training, so I can only go on my 12+ years of experience in the matter to do what I feel comfortable with.
I'm not a fan of double training the "collar smart" dog as mentioned here - one that knows what a collar is as opposed to the pronged training collar. In my opinion, a dog is not trained until he is trustworthy, and if he knows the difference between a training tool and a collar - he recognizes how to behave at minimum while on lead.
If one feels that they must constantly use a training device as a part of the animals life I'm not sure where the breakdown is - if the dog isn't trained, if the owner isn't confident in the dog - or if there are other issues.
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Feb 19, 2004 11:55:39 GMT -5
Post by amyjo on Feb 19, 2004 11:55:39 GMT -5
Well - I guess as stated before the prong is worn when the dog is supervised...the dog can't get a correction when I am not there to give it so there is no point in the dog wearing the prong when it isn't with it's trainer. So if it gets caught on the carpet or curtains or whathaveyou - I am there to take care of it. Allthough personally I have never seen this happen.
Once however my dog was in the backyard with his regular buckle collar and his tags got caught in the chain link fence - he was stuck like that for a few moments till I heard him cry - I came out and freed him. Could he have died? - maybe. Does this mean I am going to send my dog outside with out his tags because it is risky?...NO WAY the benifit of dog tags out weigh the risks posed.
I want my dog to be trained to listen to me on lead or off. Period. Why would I only want a dog that listens when he/she is on his leash? I want to be able to give a meaningful correction ANYTIME it is necessary.
I find prong corrections require much less force and are much less emotional than scruff shakes etc. I find them effective. I adopted a 9 mos old Aussie who had no house manners and couldn't walk on a lead and was so spastic I couldn't get her attention for training. Verbal corrections meant nothing because we didn't have a bond yet and scruff shaking was not working. The prong solution was wonderful for us and she wore it for 7 or 8 months whenever she was with me and learned I could ALWAYS correct her when I needed too.
She doesn't wear it around the house anymore because she doesn't need it anymore. I never let her know that it was the collar that allowed the effective correction so she respects ME and not THE COLLAR.
It is all about a cost/ benifit analysis for you - the dog and the situation. I am really sorry about your loss - but I honestly believe had I not trained this dog, this way she would have gone splat the other day when my car door popped open.
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Feb 19, 2004 12:32:14 GMT -5
Post by amyjo on Feb 19, 2004 12:32:14 GMT -5
If one feels that they must constantly use a training device as a part of the animals life I'm not sure where the breakdown is - if the dog isn't trained, if the owner isn't confident in the dog - or if there are other issues. Specifically to this comment - training is a process not event. It is ever evolving and never finished. Also, at my house training is incorporated into everything not only into formal sessions...So to say that there is confidence, training or other issues is not accurate. I do not have 12 years of training experience but I have rehabbed a dominance biter and trained a really hyper dog no-one else wanted, so I feel I have some experiece to go on too...Sometimes intelligent dog lovers just have to agree to disagree
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Feb 19, 2004 14:42:01 GMT -5
Post by Brooke on Feb 19, 2004 14:42:01 GMT -5
EXACTLY amyjo...we have a lot in common here.
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Feb 19, 2004 15:23:54 GMT -5
Post by sibemom on Feb 19, 2004 15:23:54 GMT -5
Ok this is starting to get good. With everything said already I will explain why I use a pinch collar. Most of the reasons are the same as Richard described and yes although my dog is being weened off slowley it is the best way for me to give corrections when needed. Injury can happen from any training device, flat collar, chain slip collar, etc.. it is all in the way they are used. I feel much more comfortable using a pinch because it does not do damage to the throat that a slip collar can. I also have Blade wearing his pinch with a tab attached whenever he is interacting with the family so that if he gets out of line and a verbal correction does'nt take care of it, I can do a collar correction. He is double coated and has an abundance of hair, that collar has never been a problem. As Amyjo stated training is a life long issue and even when you think you have proofed a dog untill it can be proofed no more, watch out anything can change that. I have more years experience than I care to devulge but even so I am still learning something new each and everyday just like my pup. Just when you thought you had the right training method down pat the situation can change and you must be willing to as Richard once told me "Think outside of the box". Not all dogs need a pinch, but a good portion of them could benefit from one. I like the consistancy of the correction. There is no guessing in my pups mind what the outcome of inapropriate behavior is. Collar smart OH YES but that was my fault, we have since fixed that. It is eveyones own choice how and what they use to train but I will argue the benefits of this device. It made our walks enjoyable, it made training much easier,less stress and faster, and it was not something that was going to damage the bond that we have with each other. Ok I'm done. ;D
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Feb 19, 2004 15:25:34 GMT -5
Post by Willow on Feb 19, 2004 15:25:34 GMT -5
I do not have 12 years of training experience but I have rehabbed a dominance biter and trained a really hyper dog no-one else wanted, so I feel I have some experiece to go on too...Sometimes intelligent dog lovers just have to agree to disagree It isn't the number of years you have been training. It is what you have learned works and doesn't work for you and for the dogs you have trained. If all a person trains in 12 yrs. or 40 years are submissive lap dogs, what do they know about training a 90# dominant dog who is wanting to be the Alpha in the pack. NOTE: DISCLAIMER: I AM NOT REFERRING TO ANYONE HERE WHO HAS POSTED. ;D
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Feb 19, 2004 15:34:38 GMT -5
Post by Willow on Feb 19, 2004 15:34:38 GMT -5
I also agree that a dog is more likely to get hung up and choke with a nylon collar, simply because people feel they are *safe* to leave on a dog all the time. Or what about the *Martingale* collar. Now there is a collar that, if left on while outside unsupervised, could lead to disaster, because it won't slip off over the head if the dog becomes hung up on something, but will tighten....and the choke collar. How many dogs do we see all the time running around with one on, or heaven forbid!!! Tied outside with one!!!!
It's not the collar. It's the owner. I also agree a pinch collar is less harmful to a dogs trachea than any other collar on the market. I feel the worse one for doing damage is the one people think is the safest....the regular flat nylon or leather collar.
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Feb 19, 2004 16:19:32 GMT -5
Post by Brooke on Feb 19, 2004 16:19:32 GMT -5
a 90# dominant dog who is wanting to be the Alpha in the pack. NOTE: DISCLAIMER: I AM NOT REFERRING TO ANYONE HERE WHO HAS POSTED. ;D DING! DING! DING!!!! (points to myself) I also wanted to add to this that my dog that does wear a pinch collar is just over one year old. I didn't start her on the pinch under regular training other than walking her till she was 6 months old. She is no where NEAR proofed. My other dog doesn't wear a pinch collar at all. Hasn't really *needed* one. No need to feel defensive. You are perfectly free to your opinion here Levi and you have a right to train in a manner to which you feel comfortable, just as we do. No one here will argue that. I don't have a problem with how you feel at all. I don't think anyone else does. I'd just hate for someone to make a judgement that I'm not sure I know what I'm doing, knowing very little about me and my dogs though. No one is saying you are wrong. We just want to clear the air here on any misconceptions you seem to have about us. ;D
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Feb 19, 2004 17:13:29 GMT -5
Post by amyjo on Feb 19, 2004 17:13:29 GMT -5
NOTE: DISCLAIMER: I AM NOT REFERRING TO ANYONE HERE WHO HAS POSTED. ;D ;D I said I was extra sensitive ... I am done being sensitive now
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Feb 19, 2004 17:25:04 GMT -5
Post by sibemom on Feb 19, 2004 17:25:04 GMT -5
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Feb 19, 2004 20:58:07 GMT -5
Post by Richard on Feb 19, 2004 20:58:07 GMT -5
I am going to write this slowly so my meaning is clear.
I told you how I use the prong collar on my GSD to tell you that not all storys you've seen are bad ones.
What I see in response is this.....
If one feels that they must constantly use a training device as a part of the animals life I'm not sure where the breakdown is - if the dog isn't trained, if the owner isn't confident in the dog - or if there are other issues.
I don't really care how many years a person has been training, or how many dogs they've trained if they display this type of attitude...I really don't care if you were targeting me with this statement or not but you will get my response.
I am a very responsible dog owner. I take my dogs health, training and daily existance very seriously. I go to great lengths to ensure my family understands his needs. At the same time, my dog understands very clearly his place in our famly. I trust this is clear to you.
If I choose to use the training collar on a daily basis, there is no breakdown or loss of authority. There is no loss of control of my dog or any reckless behaviour. I hope I am making this statement clear. Your opinions of prong collars are biased to the negative because of your exposure to dog owners who didn't care enough to take care of thier pet properly.
Our training is daily, we work SAR...as I said, he is a very responsive well trained dog. Our vet comments he is the most well trained dog they have coming into the clinic. I don't take any of this lightly. Your off handed coment about there being some problem because one has to leave a training collar on all the time is mute...you never stop training.
As for someone who has trained as many dogs as you have, I am surprised you would say something like that...training never stops for both the handler and dog. I understand my dogs needs..I meet them and exceed them..you see, I took the time to research my chosen breed. Betcha the people you get to see didn't...does your 12 years of dog experience tell you something at this point?
I have written this post with great restraint as I really take great offense to those who just assume everything that doesn't look right is bad because they deem it so. In my neighbourhood, I have to put up with stupid little dogs going after my dog all the time becuase stupid pet owners don't bother to put any time into thier dog. I have to put up with a lot of stupid dogs in any size charging after me and my dog because stupid dog owners don't leash thier dogs nor take the time to train them in a simple recall...are these the people you mean to support?
If so, fine, enjoy the time with those dogs that you have to save because someone didn't think it was worth the effort. I would of thought you would approve of someone who cares enough about thier pet, to make training a part of everday..which includes the equipment necessary to do the job....not that your approval is required in this sitaution as you've made your opinions clear.
I hope I have made this post clear....cuz you see, its all how you write it.
-Richard
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Feb 20, 2004 8:22:37 GMT -5
Post by Richard on Feb 20, 2004 8:22:37 GMT -5
I know you'll read this Levi so I am putting this here...
Obviously you don't want to stick around...sad, but you make your own choices...
I just wish you would of taken a few minutes to get to know us before you started trashing our training methods or more importantly, us as a group (or individuals..take your choice).
I don't think anyone was hostile towards you...yes you pushed some buttons and when you do that, I cannot believe you wouldn't expect someone to toss something back at you in response...you need to understand that but if you have your own forum then you must have figured that out already.
The internet forum enviroment is both an excellent thing and at the same time a frustrating one since the words we speak are typed and not real time...but we learn to let things play out and try to see the other point of view...
There are many views out there on dog training. The people on this forum (in general terms) each come with a vast knowledge of experiences. I have come to respect thier views and respect them as dog handlers...they know thier stuff. This is a smart group of people who admittedly, don't know it all (as you seem to indicate, you've aquired that skill apparently) and are still learning...that is where the fun comes in...we are still learning but we have the excellent behaviour of our dogs to prove that the process works....plus we all talk, listen and give things a chance..but we know what works and what doesn't!
By opening up a pandoras box with your comments, then just saying, "I'm leaving, I'm being attacked for my views", you show that either:
a) you know it all and thus, you must be up there with the dog training icons and you should stick around to help the rest of us poor souls or
b) there is no real proof to backup your claims about the prong...other than lazy, incompetent dog owners who don't care. Do you not think that we should all be thinking we should target these types of owners and get them to understand that training is necessary despite what size of dog you have?
You forgot to mention that narrow minded viewpoints are part and parcel with internet forums too...if you came here to learn or to pontificate your one sided views then fine, but at least stop and learn about those who know something too...you may just learn something as well.
-Richard
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Feb 20, 2004 15:04:30 GMT -5
Post by sibemom on Feb 20, 2004 15:04:30 GMT -5
Richard as always you have my admiration because you are so well versed and well written. I am really sorry Levi that you choose to leave, we are great bunch and yes we have strong opinions but like Richard said we have proof to back it up. I never put anyones training methods down if it works for them and is not abusive. I did not read any disrespect directed towards you so I don't understand why you wouldnt want to stick around and "KEEP THE FIRE BURNING" so to speak. I veiw dog training the same as I veiw child rearing, and my chosen Martial Art. You never stop teaching your children and you never can say you are the perfect parent, I have found that out more times than I care to remember. Tae Kwon Do as told to me by my Korean Master Instructor over 20 years ago is the "Study of a life time" thus life in general is a study. I learn something new each and everyday whether it be about dogs, kids, or just plain old living. I have been a Martial Arts instructor for many many years and I would never say I know it all because I dont. Sorry that you are leaving.
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Feb 20, 2004 18:55:59 GMT -5
Post by Aussienot on Feb 20, 2004 18:55:59 GMT -5
That's disappointing. One of the things I like about this board is the range of viewpoints. How can we learn if we all think the same?
It enfuriated me the first time I logged onto "Oz Dogs online", which claims to be Australia's Dog Supersite, and is the only site endorsed by the Australian National Kennel Council.
1) they only promote "the joy of owning a PURE BRED dog"
2) the training philosophy of PURELY POSITIVE is enspoused with a closed minded religious zeal. No alternatives are allowed and no discussions will be entered into.
I nearly stopped reading, but one poster seemed to really understand dogs and offer good advice. He regularly gets pilloried with spiteful, hateful rebutals of his"cruel and barbaric" training. I am still amazed that he stays there and continues to try to help 'holier-than-thou' people who openly attack him.
That's how I found my private trainer, Steve. He is a Tom Rose graduate who has trained with Bernard Flinks. Get some of Leerburgs tapes, that is how he trains. He primarily trains police and army dogs, but specialises in pet rescues and aggression issues.
I think it takes a special person to try to enlighten. So, occasionally I grit my teeth against the attacks and enspouse the special joy of owning a MIXED BREED dog . . . . .and prong collars . . . . .
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Feb 20, 2004 21:33:26 GMT -5
Post by Laura on Feb 20, 2004 21:33:26 GMT -5
Aussie, you are incredibly lucky to have a trainer who worked with Flinks, I've gone to four of his seminars, I learn something new every time . Hey, aren't prong collars banned in Australia ?
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