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Post by Nicole on Mar 12, 2004 12:31:32 GMT -5
Well it isn’t that the behavior is allowed. When the pup bites and mouths on the human it is redirected to a toy or other appropriate chewing object and rewarded for chewing on the toy. But with a high drive dog, that is a life consuming task.
Yes I think you should seek out and speak to club members. Even if just to observe. BUT, I would really educate myself first. Ask your questions on Leerberg and read all you can. I say this because I honestly don’t think that club members are very tolerant of dabblers. I imagine some are but my bet is that most aren’t. They are VERY serious about what they do. So get some foundation knowledge before you go that route.
As for the baby, most of these dogs are not treated like pets. For the obvious reason that you pointed out. Most are given socialization time with the family (some more than others) but largely they are either working/training or kenneled/crated. I would imagine that the answer is to never leave the pup in a situation where it can mouth the child. As I said, the dogs are not fawned over and treated like a pet. They simply aren’t pets. Many are always kenneled when they are not training.
I am not an expert on this. My knowledge comes soley from years of reading. I think it would do you good to talk to someone actually engaged in the sport. Go and post your questions on Leerberg. They are a bit arrogant and no nonsense but who cares as long as you get the info that you want.
As to your question in the last paragraph, yes this is correct. I teach with positive reinforcement, proof with corrections and extingish most unwanted behaviors with both redirection and correction. This works for me. ;D
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Post by Willow on Mar 12, 2004 16:17:36 GMT -5
They simply aren’t pets. Many are always kenneled when they are not training. Admittedly, I have not done any reading on Schutzund or other dog sports, simply because it has not interested me, but I didn't know this! I was under the impression from posts on other dog sites about Schutzhund, that the dogs were family pets who were simply trained in Schutzhund! Thanks for clarifying that, Nicole.
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Post by Nicole on Mar 12, 2004 16:29:43 GMT -5
From what I have read, some do keep the dogs in the house, but these are very experienced people who can manage the situation and make sure the dog is handled properly "for the sport" if that makes sense. But as pets..bite your tongue.
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Post by Nicole on Mar 12, 2004 16:58:33 GMT -5
I probably shouldn't make such a general statement like that. I am sure that there are people who do it for fun or on not so serious levels who keep and treat the dog as a pet. To be honest, I really don't know to what extent that would be the case.
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Post by Aussienot on Mar 12, 2004 17:34:18 GMT -5
Broadly speaking, my understanding is that what Nicole said is correct. Most active Schutzhund dogs are not also family pets. They are working dogs in every sense of the word; and while socialised, spend most of their non-training time in kennels rather than in the family room.
Of course there are exceptions; some trainers are able to manage it.
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Post by Richard on Mar 12, 2004 18:20:04 GMT -5
Great thread folks......
Ok, just to add to the info here...depending on the handler and how serious they are, the dogs are not treated as "family pets" persay, but as working dogs like how Police officers treat their K9 partners....they do intermix with the family but will be kenneled outside in a separate area (or in a kennel in the garage when its really cold) so as to not get the dog too "cozy" with the environment. While Schutzhund dogs aren't used in the same way, I would think they are handled and worked in the same way...when you see the focus and drive these dogs have it's difficult to see them as a cozy lap dog type.....its all work (but in essence play) with them.
When you see people come across the country for Schutzhund competitions and the quality of the dogs and the seriousness of the competitors, you know the relationship they have is all business.
Just to add another aspect, we do have a couple of dogs who work Schutzhund as well as SAR work in the group (the guy who runs the show is an excellent trainer and knows his stuff) and in this case, these are family dogs who have the necessary drives.....but our trainer and his assitant both are involved in Schutzhund competitions and you see they handle thier dogs in a different way.
So in the end, if you choose to get into Schutzhund as a recreational sport and still keep your fuzzy kid for a family pet, you can do that....if you choose to start from having a puppy that you know has the temperment and breeding for a full schutzhund training program, then you can go from the ground up go the full program (which means lots of training, competition and time)...but when you see a SchIII dog in action, it is just absolutely phenominal....
-Richard
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Post by sibemom on Mar 12, 2004 20:01:07 GMT -5
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Post by Willow on Mar 12, 2004 20:12:24 GMT -5
Aren't most of the sport dogs that attack people also dogs that the owner's consider *pets*and were just more or less dabbling in the sport, but not really seriously training the dogs? I have heard it said that the owner's of these dogs did not *finish* their training...that they had just enough training to be *dangerous*, and this is what always turned me off of the sport. It seemed there were too many irresponsible owner's messing with it and creating dangerous dogs.
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Post by sibemom on Mar 12, 2004 20:16:44 GMT -5
You are right on that point Loey. That is the reason he trained his dogs the way he did. They were all pets first. His theory was that if they could not comform to a family enviorment then he did not want them. He had trophys up the behind for his dogs and not one of them was comprimised in competition by the way he choose to train.
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Post by Richard on Mar 12, 2004 20:46:51 GMT -5
Indeed it does come down to the handler and his/her devotion to the sport and thier dog....
And if someone is just dabbling in schutzhund only for the "bite work" part, I certainly wouldn't want that person or their dog within 1000 miles of me....the Schutzhund clubs I've seen are nothing short of professionals when it comes to thier atttitude, training and devotion to the sport.
Those who choose to do a half-a$$ed attempt only are doing a diservice to the sport and the dog (and not to mention having an untrained nutso dog around too..perhaps like that rottie in that show you guys were talking about).
I think that if someone says they're doing schutzhund training, they're either in it 100% or not...there is no half ground nor would I think a club tolerate that type of member...as Loey said, the results of improper training are not nice..
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Post by Willow on Mar 13, 2004 12:03:07 GMT -5
Well, I hope it works out for you, but IMO, just from the little I know about the sport, I would not take one of my dogs and try to make a Schutzhund dog out of them...I would go out and buy a pup with the best breeding I could afford, because a good sport dog, as Rocky says, has to have rock solid nerves, like the ones Ed Frawley breeds and then I would do like Sibemom said her uncle did. Make a good family dog out of it (hopefully) first, and then get someone like Ed to train under.
I would want to insure to the best of my ability that I was doing everything right, because it's just like anything else. If I wanted to get into sheep herding, I wouldn't take my Lab and try to train it for that, as neither would I take my Aussie and try to make a duck dog out of her. You have to start with the breed best suited for what you want to do, and then get the best bred dog from that breed that you can, and then train under the best trainer you can. JMO ;D
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Post by Nicole on Mar 13, 2004 15:57:34 GMT -5
That is excellent advice Willow
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Post by Richard on Mar 13, 2004 16:57:17 GMT -5
Yup, once again, Loey posts what sums up an excellent thread.
Serena, do some visiting (those clubs love new members and introducing the sport to others - if the one you visit is stuffy and clique, find another one...that is important) and ask lots of questions and be prepared to commit a lot of time to training (and money)...be honest in your abilities and you will reach your goals...and of course, you'll be able to keep us posted too cuz whatever experiences everyone brings with them to this forum makes us all better dog owners and handlers...
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Post by gunny on Mar 19, 2005 23:03:11 GMT -5
hi, everyone I am new to dog training. only about a year an half experience and a head full of book knowledge. I frequent my local schutzhund club. I have a malinois and a catahoula and mix that we cannot quite figure out wht he is. I jsut wanted to introduce myself.
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Post by Brooke on Mar 20, 2005 11:06:35 GMT -5
Welcome to the group Gunny! ;D You wouldn't happen to be military are you? ;D
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