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Post by Aussienot on Mar 6, 2004 19:49:30 GMT -5
As a one stop shop for Schutzhund, you can't beat www.Leerburg.comTons of information, lots of really experienced handlers and trainers. Leerburg offers lots of tapes and books for beginning training, and there's an awesome discussion board with great posts to read. 'Building Grip, Drive and Focus' is perfect for foundation building, and the exercises on the tape are things your dog might enjoy and you can do at home. Some of Leerburg a bit extreme for the average pet owner, as these guys are really serious about serious dogs; but if you are sincere in wanting information, go there. You can find out where there is a good club near you. Schutzhund is really something a trainer needs help with and a club structure. For the bite work, the training club provides a well-padded Helper who takes the attack. The handler never is used as the target, because the dog is supposed to be protecting you. Working with a helper is quite a way off however, as there's a lot of foundation work that comes first. Often it takes a year, or more before the dog is ready for bite work. Schutzhund is a many faceted training, even though the general public only thinks about the bite work. Your boxer is probably a bit too old, neutered and too preconditioned as a household pet to ever get to competion level, but he might enjoy some of the training. For a puppy, you start by developing a good firm grip and learning to turn on prey drive. Building spirit and a sense of invincibility is part of puppy raising too, and not everyone wants to live with that kind of unrulieness. The kind of behavior you need out of a housepet can destroy the fight drive that you want in a schutzhund dog. I don't do Schutzhund work with my dog, but I looked into it quite a bit, mostly for the drive controlling stuff, and I work with a Schutzhund/Police/Army dog trainer about once a month on obedience. Good luck, keep us posted on how you go.
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Post by Brooke on Mar 6, 2004 20:16:51 GMT -5
Definately keep us posted. Your experience in this type of training will be a great asset to this group if you choose to stick around with us. I'd love to learn more about this. I should spend more time at leerburg. It is an EXCELLENT source of information for working and sport dogs.
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Post by Richard on Mar 6, 2004 22:06:05 GMT -5
Our SAR group has a couple of sch1 dogs as well...last spring we went to the Canadian Championships which was held up in York region here in Ontario.....I was just blown away by the level of control the handlers have with their dogs...what I was really impressed with was the ability for the dog to work alone off lead in the hold at the blind...wow!
If you have an opportunity, I'd go out and see one of these shows/competitions first...you will really get an eyeful of what is required to achieve SchIII...
As for the rest, yeah, check out Leerberg...they are serious trainers/handlers but it is excellent reading.
Also, one other note: if you are able to see a Police K9 (Police Service Dog) competition in your area, check them out too...once again, you will be amazed at the level of teamwork between handler and his dog...absolutely impressive (we watched the Canadian West Coast Police Dog Competitions a couple of weeks ago on TV - wow is all I kept saying).
-Richard
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Post by Richard on Mar 7, 2004 7:38:39 GMT -5
Hi Serena, The Schutzhund clubs are spread across north america..you can do a search on google to find out where there is one near you. You can go visit one and talk to people and see whats up there. Like anything else sometimes, there is a misconception of what Schutzhund is and what it's meant to accomplish. Not every dog can compete at this level...you need one with a high prey drive (in all 3 areas), very confident and as they say "a clear head". People say its the biting portion that they are concerned with.....this is something that the dog is trained to do and when to do it...that is where the non-stop training comes in (and a few good helpers!). The day I went to the Cdn show, there was mostly GSD's but a fair amount of malinois too. It is safe to say, you will also see rotties, dobes, boxers, bouviers and a few others as well...but no chocolate labs!!(see my other post...grrrrrrr ). Schutzhund was originally developed in Europe to test privately owned working dogs...this was over 90 years ago and while it has changed a bit, its still the same 3 basic skills that test dog and handler: obedience, tracking & protection. As assienot said, it takes about a year for your SchI and then by that time, you've moved into the SchII then onto the SchIII level. (And for those PP folks following, clicker training is now being seen at schutzhund competitions as well.) When you watch the competitions, you see the 3 areas of skills the dog/handle demonstrate and that is where a lot of K9 work is based upon this and then moves to a higher refined standard depending on the dogs intended use ie: general purpose (building searches, tracking, artical search), bomb sniffer, weapons detection, ect. I guess one of the differences between Schutzhund and Police work is that when the K9 dog is sent after a fleeing suspect (and I still don't know why they run after the warning) the dog isn't practicing anymore with a helper but its for real and all he or she is doing is just having fun (well not the bad guy....they get bit )! -Richard
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Post by Richard on Mar 7, 2004 10:48:35 GMT -5
My pleasure...I find the time to commit to our SAR work pales in comparison to what is required for Schutzhund work....both demand time to train and learn but Schutzhund is just a bit more challenging to me cuz of the type of dog that is required. As for the bite work, yes, the concept is that any dog knows how to bite, in Schutzhund, the dog is trained when to bite, when to release and its all under the control of the handler. They believe that this is a very sound training method - remember though, you are dealing with dogs who display the right temperment for this sport so thier training is a must and it is very rigidly stuck to. As for clicker training, yeah, it's starting to show up as a alternative to the traditional methods but don't be put off by what you will see...strong alpha handlers working with highly driven dogs. Here is an excerpt from the Canadian Schutzhund web site about the 3 different skills... Tracking: The dog must retrace the path of a person (400-1500+ yards with 2-4 turns) after 20-60 minutes have elapsed and be able to find 2-3 lost articles, regardless of weather conditions. Obedience: The dog must follow the handler's orders to heel both on and off leash, jump, retrieve, retrieve over a 6 foot wall, and send away. The dog must not be intimidated by any distractions, including the sound of a gun or a group of strangers milling about. Protection and Obedience under a Conflict Situation: The dog must, without handler assistance, respond properly in critical situations like finding and warning its handler of a hidden person, preventing an assault on his handler, and stopping the villain from escaping. The dog must distinguish between a harmless bystander and a potentially dangerous person. He must display courage but restraint on his own when the agitator gives up. There is more at thier website.....especially a great FAQ section..check it out: www.gsscc.caThat is the Canadian one but they work the same way across the board...most times, they have judges come in from Germany to do the judging in these events....if anyone knows about Schutzhund, its the Germans. The reason the protection side requries a brave dog (sounds corny but true) is because part of the testing is when the dog is doing bite work and he's being dragged all over the field by the helper who is using a baton and imatating a striking motion on him as they move....a dog with no assertiveness would back off but the ones who are confident and show no fear...they latch on and hang on until called off by thier handler...I cannot really describe this adequately here..you have to see it in person to really appreciate what level of talent these dogs/handlers are at. If you can find a club near you, sure, go out and watch...I was still yapping about it for days after the show I watched....they call it a sport..I term it more the Ultimate handler/dog relationship. But then again, that is just me. -Richard
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Post by Brooke on Mar 7, 2004 14:57:44 GMT -5
As for Leerburg you probably won't find much about Shutzhund in their training articles. You'll find a wealth of information in their training forum though.
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Post by Nicole on Mar 10, 2004 18:06:07 GMT -5
I checked out Leerburgs forum and there was a category in regards to using clicker training and someone mentioned something about that most dogs that fair well with clicker training don't have the *drive* of dogs that are capable of doing SchH work, is this correct? I am not engaged in the sport but from my interest in it, I would have to agree with that statement. As you know, in addition to teaching affirmative behaviors, sit etc. clicker trainers use the clicker to extinguish behaviors (mouthing, jumping etc.) and to desensitize a dog to distractions (other dogs, people, birds etc) with a event marker and reward for paying attention to the handler rather than the distraction and/ or for ceasing the unwanted behavior. With a very high drive working bred dog it is going to take years, if ever, to extinquish behavior or desensitize like this because of the intensity of the drive towards whatever is motivating that drive. The more likely outcome is that you aren’t going to desensitize or extinguish certain behaviors in this fashion without corrections because of the intensity of the drives inherent in the well bred working dog. (I personally think that concept applies to most dogs, not just high drive working dogs.) Also remember most clicker trainers don’t use corrections or aversive methods at all. So it would follow that if the dog is able to be desensitized to something that should incite the dogs drive or stops engaging in drive induced behavior (i.e. mouthing, chasing) at the sound of a click, the drive (and we are talking largely prey drive here) is not there and/or is much weaker than optimal for the sport. Schutzhund is taught almost entirely in prey drive. It is a game to the dog. Without a very strong prey drive the dog will not succeed on any serious level. A dog that can be trained soley with a clicker and no corrections is a dog with low or no drive at all. IMO anyway.
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Post by Richard on Mar 11, 2004 8:00:50 GMT -5
Nicki is dead on with her post....
It's like you can't have a peanut butter & jam sandwich and still call it that if you don't have the jam....there will be something missing for sure...its the same with Schutzhund...you need a strong headed dog(with high prey drive as Nicki noted), a strong handler and a proven method of training/correction in place....trust me, trying to use a clicker on a strong willed GSD will only end up in frustration all around....the dog will look at you and go, "what the heck is with the clicking thing?" and go do his own thing......
To sum up, just to mention something I had posted before, there are many different dogs with many different temperments out there...as a handler, you need to match your attitude with the kind of dog you want and your method of training to suit that type of breed.
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Post by Nicole on Mar 11, 2004 9:53:21 GMT -5
trust me, trying to use a clicker on a strong willed GSD will only end up in frustration all around....the dog will look at you and go, "what the heck is with the clicking thing?" and go do his own thing...... ;D ;D I can picture Rocky saying that...
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Post by Willow on Mar 11, 2004 11:40:40 GMT -5
trust me, trying to use a clicker on a strong willed GSD will only end up in frustration all around....the dog will look at you and go, "what the heck is with the clicking thing?" and go do his own thing...... This is just the point with clicker training. As I understand it, the *click* is used as a *marker*, telling the dog what it is doing is *right* behavior or *wrong* behavior, and wouldn't a click for both behavior's be confusing to the dog, unless it is followed by either a correction in a wrong behavior, or a reward, for right behavior? By using a click for both behaviors but just using a reward (i.e. treat, toy, or praise) for right behavior and ignoring the wrong behavior, I can't see where that would work. In fact, just trying to describe it has me so confused I need to go lie down awhile! ;D Also, many trainer's (myself included) use an *ah ah* as a *marker* for wrong behavior, and a *yes* or *good* for right behavior, which makes much more sense to me than using a clicker for both behavior's. I'm so confused now, I don't know if this makes sense or not. ;D
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Post by amyjo on Mar 11, 2004 12:07:52 GMT -5
My understanding is when the dog does something wrong the handler doesn't correct the bad behavior - the handler tries to redirect the dog to something appropriate and THEN clicks Then rewards.
If you ask me - not correcting for the bad behavior is a missed opportunity and the click is an extra step. I am not a fan.
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Post by Willow on Mar 11, 2004 13:07:10 GMT -5
So, with a clicker, you just click for appropriate behavior and ignore, or redirect, but don't click for inappropriate behavior, until you get a correct behavior by redirecting, then you click. Seems like unnecessary steps to me, and I agree a correction should be given for the wrong behavior, even if it's just an *ah ah*. I like my way better.
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Post by Richard on Mar 11, 2004 13:37:20 GMT -5
I agree...I have found it more beneficial to correct (and yes, that'll be a motivational correction) at the time the dog is doing what he's not supposed to be doing (i.e. lunging at another dog or charging ahead to the end of the leash ect ect). I have seen far far too many types around my neighbourhood who simply ignore thier dogs bad behaviour with little or no training or weak un-enforced commands. To these people, I look nasty if I give a motivational correction and say at the same time to my dog in a stern voice, "leave it" , but my dog knows I've made the point clear, any goofy business and you will be corrected, not redirected...and no, it 'ain't no power trip - it is having your dog under control....would I need this on a submissive lab who throws herself on the ground for even leaves blowing by? no, of course not...the level and type of correction is not required. I would need to learn the amount of correction necessary to acheive compliance from that type of dog.....that has been the common element running through this thread.
I mean, like Loey and amyjo said, it seems like there is an extra step for the correction in place that I don't have time to deal with if I want to correct for a certain negative behaviour or whatever. I know clicking has its place (and correcting negative behaviour by redirection isn't its only use) but I guess, IMO, it won't get the message across as effectively or as efficiently.
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Post by Willow on Mar 11, 2004 14:39:10 GMT -5
Even submissive dogs need a motivational collar correction at times, because I have seen these types of dogs act mortified, and/or flop on the ground, belly exposed, at a verbal correction, but if not corrected physically with a training collar, or given too soft a correction, they will go right back and do the same thing over again! Usually after one or two collar corrections, however, you have gotten the point across and from then on an *ah ah* from you and they will immediately *cease and desist* the behavior.
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Post by Nicole on Mar 12, 2004 8:13:12 GMT -5
The general approach as I understand it is that the pups are taught with positive methods. The reward is usually tied into drive..chasing a ball, tugging and food. The dogs are NEVER corrected for biting, mouthing, chewing, chasing etc. or for any behavior that is drive induced and necessary to engage in the sport. The reason for this is that you do not want to kill the dogs drive. However, the dogs are corrected for inappropriate behavior that isn't drive/sport related..growling at handler, dog aggression, etc. and ALWAYS in the proofing stage. In other words, for not obeying commands that have already been learned. It is not much different than how we train here except that we deliberately extinguish certain behaviors that a schutzhund trainer wouldn't dream of..i.e. mouthing, chasing etc. These behaviors are undesirable in a pet but desirable for the sport. The schutz trainer will redirect and reward and live with chewed up hands for the sake of the sport. But this is just the basics. The schutz pup is put through rigorous and specific exercises starting at a very young age to build drive etc. The training is complex and I personally don't know the details well enough to set them forth for you. I would start with some books and tapes from leerberg..especially the Training Drive, Grip and Focus. As to why clicker trainers don't correct, they say they don't want the dog to act out of fear. They want the dog to WANT to obey. They humanize the dog. So they train for years to get the dog to not pull when it can be accomplished in 10 minutes. And try asking a PP trainer how they would react to the running out in the street example that you gave. You will never get an answer. There isn't one.
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