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Post by ripley on Sept 3, 2004 12:12:01 GMT -5
OK, started working with Dakota & the clicker, and already ran into an obstacle. He thinks it's a toy. He does NOT make a connection with the click&treat, instead he jumps up and tries to grab the clicker from my hand.. and when I tell him "no", he gets completely out of it and stops responding, cuz 'mom is mad at me' Any suggestions?
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GWPSage
Trained
Back in the saddle again
Posts: 201
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Post by GWPSage on Sept 3, 2004 12:21:44 GMT -5
RG My understanding of clicker training is you would not tell him "NO" you would wait until all four feet are on the ground then click and treat. I was chastised by a trainer, for telling Sage to down instead of waiting for her to do it. (Before she knew the word) The clicker worked for correction ie when she was running from me. But try standing waiting for a pointer to do something acceptable. You would be waiting for a really LOOOOOOOOOONG time.
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Post by Iluvmypup on Sept 3, 2004 12:37:23 GMT -5
Don't worry, thats actually a very common thing that people using clickers run into. The secret? Hold your clicker hand, and the clicker behind your back, and out of your dog's face. Some dogs get distracted by anything...one dog I had, I couldn't even use food lures because he would forget all his training and go crazy. Thats when I just waited him out to have him do what I wanted, and clicked for it. Since he's jumping, and say you want him to STOP jumping. Like GWPSage mentioned, in clicker training, usually you won't say "no", for unruly behaviour. Just wait him out. OR, you could just step on his leash to prevent him from jumping up and 'having fun'. ;D Save the "no"s for other stuff. In this case, you most likely won't need it. Just click when he's got all four feet on the floor. OR, if you'd like him to sit for those times when people greet him, start by bringing a treat to his nose, luring him in a sit, and clicking. Ignore him if he begins to jump, and (a.), either end the session and continue later or (b.) wait for him to calm down and try again. Dakota sounds like a guy who needs a LOOOT of exercise before the training sessions... ;D Don't worry, he'll make the connection soon enough. You can click for whatever just to get him to understand that "clicker=good stuff". Click when you put down his food, click when you're going to take him for a walk, click him for a short game of tug, click him for a long petting session....whatever he LOVES, click and he'll learn to love the sound. Hope this helped a little...
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Post by ripley on Sept 3, 2004 18:44:48 GMT -5
Actually, our problem is solved. I just handed it to him when he jumped for it, and he realized that it's a LOUSY toy.. He just looked at me like: Mom.. This is lame. He's not as intrigued by the noise anymore and STARES at the clicker (typical border collie!) until I click & treat.. He's only 10 weeks, I'm not going to do super-intense training.. He's sitting about 85% of the time (it takes him awhile to get what I said.. it's so cute, he cocks his head like "huh? duhhh lemme think about that.." ) and he's learned that he gets treats and toys when he walks beside me..
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Post by Iluvmypup on Sept 4, 2004 12:06:54 GMT -5
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Post by ripley on Sept 5, 2004 15:52:27 GMT -5
Ahh, guess what? A PP obstacle that I KNEW would show up. HOW do I correct him (or rather, NOT correct him) for going in the forbidden places in the house (There are only two forbidden places. The dining room, and underneath the deck, just so you know that I'm not being unreasonable) He runs for the holes in the wood that we have around the deck, and he squeezes in. I can almost always call him out, and I praise the HECK out of him and click, reward, and cuddle, but HOW do I teach him that he can NOT go in there? This is a case where I don't want to take the 'prevention' option. I want him to know that he is not allowed to go in there! Since i'm pretty much following the PP method of training, cuz he's still just a tiny pup, any suggestions? (And no, Luv, I'm not calling you a PP trainer. ;D )
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Post by Iluvmypup on Sept 5, 2004 18:19:01 GMT -5
Haha... Thank you. ;D This is a bit tricky, considering you don't want to use the prevention alternative which is usually the easiest, and also because there are so many different ways of teaching it, and there are different ways that work for each dog. For example, some people will put an upside down floor mat type of thing, with those bumps on the top. Some dogs HATE that, and after a couple days of having a specific room blocked with that, they refuse to go there ever again. But then, some dogs could care less, so for some dogs, this won't work. Then theres the 'alarm' system that you can buy nowadays. I'm not a fan of it, but some people swear by it. It basically makes a high pitched noise that only your dog can hear, deterring them from ever entering the room. THEN, theres always the technique of saying "LEAVE IT" and walking in the other direction, and click and treat for a good "LEAVE IT". If done every time without giving your dog a chance to enter that room, it does work on a lot of dogs. I'll talk to some other trainers I know who may be able to help as well...I'm sorry I can't help out more. I do know somebody who deals a lot with 'indoor problems' so I'll see what he has to say.
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Post by amyjo on Sept 5, 2004 18:48:14 GMT -5
I taught my Kylie girl a boundry in the house so that there is a kitty-safe zone.
When she went to cross the boundry I just stepped in front of her and said nooooooooooo in a real low voice. It didn't take long and she got the idea.
Then I distracted her with a toy or something in the "legal" area.
I prevented her from crossing it with a baby gate when I couldn't watch and I taught her a command "get on your side" for when she is on the kitties side legally but is time to go back to "her side". It worked great for everyone. The corrections can come later if you find they are necessary.
I think it is fine to nooooo and body block a puppy.
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Post by ripley on Sept 5, 2004 19:04:07 GMT -5
Thanks for the advice Luv & Amyjo.
I'm OK with using the body block technique, but I have 2 problems, one with each space.
1.) In the dining area, the entrance is about 18ft wide. I'm fast, but he's faster and slips right by me.
2.) The spot where he can get underneath the deck is blocked by two trees, leaving hardly any room for me to do a body block and NO room for me to be able to move if I need to.
Plus, the outside spot is so rugged that the mat idea won't work.
I guess that leaves the "OFF"/"OUT"command. (For my dogs, "OFF" or "OUT" is the command for 'leave it', 'no jumping', 'off the furniture' and 'drop the toy'. Yet, Ripley always seems to know what form of 'off/out' i mean.)
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Post by Iluvmypup on Sept 6, 2004 8:30:43 GMT -5
You don't think you could get a baby gate like amyjo recommended? When you can't keep 100% of your supervision on him, thats when trouble occurs. ;D Its where the 'prevention' comes in handy. I couldn't afford a baby gate for my first pup, so I just had a really long board put up, and thanked my husband for being a carpenter all along. ;D In the meantime, since he can easily slip by you, I would keep him on-leash for those times when the room isn't blocked off. You can easily tell him 'Ah-ah!' or "WRONG!" (which I find is the best "NO" word, since it sounds deeper and connects the wrong behaviour better..but thats just what I use, everyones different..), and if he decides to try to go past anyways, you can simply back him up, and praise him for following you and not entering the room. As for outdoors, I'm trying to picture how your deck is. In this case, again, I would try to keep him on-leash until he's older and learns where his boundaries are. Of course, then he'll be bigger and probably won't be able to fit.. ;D Just use the LEAVE IT command and walk him away to distract him with something else (playing with Ripley, placing chase, playing frisbee...). You can use the clicker for when he ignores playing under the deck and does something else.
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Post by Willow on Sept 6, 2004 8:56:21 GMT -5
RG, why don't you want him/them under the deck? My dogs love to lie under the deck. It's cool in the summer. My hubby even stapled a plastic tarp underneath in one corner to keep it dry when it rains.
Yes, they do get sandy when they lie under there, but it's not a big problem unless they are wet.
If I didn't want them to go under there, I would simply extend the lattice we have on the other three sides to the side that doesn't have lattice, so they couldn't get under there, because I feel it isn't worth the "hassle" and time to try to train them not to go under there. JMO
As to "boundary training" in the house. There are several ways you can do it, but again, to save time/hassle I would keep a leash on him in the house until he's trained to stay out of certain rooms, so he can't "zip" past you. Then you can either prevent him from going into the room by grabbing the leash and saying "Ah, ah" or whatever you choose, but this takes diligence. If he is allowed to get into that room one time while training him not to go in there, it will confuse him and set the training back.
Another way you can do it is put a rope across the doorway and his chest height and again, with him on leash, don't let him enter the room. You do this for several days until he has the idea and then gradually lower the rope until it is lying flat on the floor. After he has this down and won't step over the rope, you can remove the rope, but I wouldn't be in too big a hurry, because as I have said, if he is allowed to get in there even just one time, it will slow down the training process.
Another thing I have found that works even better than preventing them from entering the room by grabbing the leash etc., is like Amyjo said. Use the body block. With you in the "off limits" room, step in front of him and tell him "no" or what ever it is you use.
Which ever method you use, I wouldn't allow him into the room at all, even with permission, because it's too confusing for them to allow them in one time and then the next tell them to get out.
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Post by ripley on Sept 6, 2004 13:47:47 GMT -5
Willow, I don't want him under the deck because of several reasons 1.) It's the cat's place, and I know there are some raccoons that live under there as well. 2.) There is a lot of tree sap underneath there. The cats know to avoid it but the dogs get covered in it when they go under there 3.) when they go in there, they don't come out, and with the wood 'fence' around the deck, it's hard to reach in and get them. 4.) there are mushrooms growing under there that Dakota tries to eat. 5.) The deck leads to the crawl space beneath the house, and the dog can go all the way to the back of the house, about 300 feet into the darkness, panic, and force me to take the deck apart, and crawl in the nasty sappy muck to get them out. It's pretty much a hazard to the dog.. otherwise I'd have no problem letting them under there. I might actually just board up the holes in the 'fence' around the deck for now, and wait until we get home from AZ to teach Dakota not to go in there.... It's not worth it only 4 weeks before we leave, he'll probably forget about it anyways. As for the dining room, I'll get a baby gate.. It's not endangering the dog, and I know I'm not going to be watching him 24/7, so I think that'll be a good idea. I keep forgetting that this is just a tiny pup and that he probably won't remember what I teach him 8 months from now when we're back home from AZ.
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Post by Iluvmypup on Sept 6, 2004 18:15:59 GMT -5
As long as you keep reinforcing the rules, I'm sure he'll remember before long. Since Dakota seems to enjoy a dark, cool place, you could always try getting him one of those plastic 'kiddy slides'. My doberman LOVES it. He hides underneath, and sometimes, rarely, I'll spray water underneath to get it all muddy for him...heaven on earth. ;D Sometimes dogs just need alternatives. Kind of like digging problems...
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