Jeff
puppy
Posts: 44
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Post by Jeff on Mar 1, 2004 12:39:51 GMT -5
Hey everyone. I have read the other threads, and I was just curious about some stuff. Dex was a nightmare on leash when I rescued him. You would think he was always trying to practice for weight pull competitions. Every walk was like pull, pull, pull. Anyhow, he is much better after training. My question is as follows: How can one train their dogs to not pull by using purely positive training? I was just wondering, as I dont see anyway this method would have worked for Dex.
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Post by Richard on Mar 1, 2004 13:08:33 GMT -5
psssst...I could get major slagged/flamed for this but I think with your type of dog, you did the only method that works....you can't make the dog fit the method, you need to make the method fit the dog.....not all dogs need prongs and a strong alpha, yet, not all dogs will respond to you without a motivational correction and being a strong alpha leader.
There are breeds of dogs who don't care who is in charge of the pack, thier attitude is, "I just want to be near you and lets just have fun!!!" Then there are others that need a strong leader and they need to be kept busy, excercised and challenged daily. While I could use PP on the first dog, it definitely would be a challenge (I didn't say it wouldnt' work, but would be a challenge) on the second dog. Conversely, I wouldn't use a prong on a laidback, happy go lucky dog like a G.Ret either....
To me, its the breed of dog, thier personality and the personality of the owner that needs to be addressed when looking at training methods.
Long way of answering your question, but just my thoughts.
-Richard
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Post by Willow on Mar 1, 2004 15:23:17 GMT -5
;D....And excellent thoughts they were, Richard. Couldn't have said it better myself.
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Post by Nicole on Mar 1, 2004 16:22:22 GMT -5
I agree!! Those were excellent thoughts! And even the "I want to be by your side dogs" pull on a leash. And if the squirrel or dog across the street is more interesting than the treat or heaven forbid you forgot the treats, then what...
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Post by Brooke on Mar 1, 2004 17:06:47 GMT -5
I have to agree with this completely. I kind of look at it as any other aspect of life. A mechanic can't fix a car with just any ol part, you have to work with the make and model of the car and the right tools and parts to fix what is broken. You can't just use whatever for your own personal reasons. It doesn't depend entirely on you it depends on what you are working with. Great post Richard. On a soft dog there are lots of ways to work this. For Kuma walking on a lead all it took was a few about faces and walking the complete opposite direction she was when she started to get ahead of me. We used a flat buckel collar on her. I also used a wooden spoon with peanut butter on it. When she walked beside me and was paying attention well for a few moments I'd give her a lick as we were still walking marking. If she started to walk ahead of me I'd pop the leash. (No prong) She is a simple dog to train... Peeka on the other hand.... Calgon take me away....
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Post by Nicole on Mar 1, 2004 17:39:03 GMT -5
I also used a wooden spoon with peanut butter on it. When she walked beside me and was paying attention well for a few moments I'd give her a lick as we were still walking marking. If she started to walk ahead of me I'd pop the leash. (No prong) She is a simple dog to train... That is the difference. You are still marking the wrong behavior. With PP, they only praise the good and hope that the bad is extinguished. I really don't think that concept works on many dogs, soft or hard. I think it is a question as to how forceful you have to be to get across your point with a particular dog that a certain behavior is wrong. This can range from an ah ah to an e collar stim. But to never tell a dog when he is acting wrong, what is the point of that? If you never tell a dog in some way that he shouldn't pull how does he know not to pull. The peanut butter on a spoon is a great idea!! ;D I am going to try that.
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Post by amyjo on Mar 1, 2004 17:49:49 GMT -5
This can range from an ah ah to an e collar stim. This kinda implies that an e-collar stim is at the extreme end of the "motivational correction continuum" I just want to point out that some e-collars have many settings - the lowest of which can barely be felt by humans. Off topic I know I couldn't help myself. Just trying to give some positive PR to the e-collar ;D On another note I have a PP book in my training library. It says that if the dog pulls you are supposed to stop walking- and wait for the dog to calm down then start again.... praising the dog when it walks nice and stopping dead in your tracks when it pulls. Hey I'll try anything once - Kylie and I never got out of the driveway!
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Post by Nicole on Mar 1, 2004 18:06:28 GMT -5
Sorry Amyjo. What I meant was a level 10 stim not the low setting. You are absolutely right!! In fact, the low setting is less forceful than a prong correction. Now, stopping dead to me is not pp and doesn't work anyway. Turning quickly and walking in the opposite direction works much better. But stopping dead is a negative response. It deprives the dog from walking. How does that differ from an ah ah to get the same message across.
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Post by amyjo on Mar 1, 2004 18:22:36 GMT -5
I think you will find a lot of PP people will use negative punishment (taking away something pleasant)... I agree with you it isn't PURELY positive. Alot of those I know use ahhhhh ahhh too - but they will absolutely not use a physical correction on the dog. They say "hands are only for food and love"
I personally would rather use the physical correction and then get on with it! The walking thing being a perfect example - I think it is more cruel to deprive the dog of a walk than to pop it once or twice - I do have verrry hyper dogs and that affects my opinion.
There are times - like in my post about Kylie's reaction to other dogs where a physical correction just doesn't work because it just amps her up more and in that case I have to be flexible and look for something that works. Its a combination of the dog, the person and the situation that determines the correct method.
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Jeff
puppy
Posts: 44
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Post by Jeff on Mar 1, 2004 19:14:25 GMT -5
Thanks for the replies. I did not think it was possible, lol Haha, maybe someone will come on and defend PP in this aspect of training. Like stated before, Dex was totally out of control on-leash when I first adopted him. I use a martingale-type collar that acts as a nylon choke. I do the turn and walk the other way (when he starts to trot in front of me) among other leash corrections, about faces, etc. I would also tangle myself up in the leash and mutter in displeasure. Hehehe, another thing I did was when he starts to pull, I would pretend as though he caused me to trip. LOL, I would have to keep up the act for a while as though he really injured me. Haha, he would walk next to me so gentle and in control after my "injuries." After what seemed like an eternity, I saw progress. Please dont misinterpret what I am about to say. I would turn the tone down if other people were around while training him. I would never risk hurting him while training, but his leash corrections might look funny to a passer-by. Pinch collars have been effective on Dex, but he has no hair on his neck, and it gets irritated easily. I use a pinch every once in a while. It is great being able to correct him with the slight lift of a finger.
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Post by Aussienot on Mar 1, 2004 19:19:39 GMT -5
Easy, just find a witch to cast a spell to turn your dog into a Golden Retriever! Heeling through positive is much easier to do with a very young puppy when you are still the centre of their universe. Sailor the Lab was heeling pretty well off leash at 10 weeks with food treats held low at first, lots of verbal praise and encouragement, and by my simply turning the opposite direction if she started to lose focus. Plus we would intersperse play with training - I'd heel a few paces, then throw a ball for her to chase. ( At the time I didn't know that is an actual training technique, I was just keeping it fun for her!). She is as an adult a wonderful heeler. All of her OB was taught positive by 16 weeks, and for her it is still a reasonable strategy for behavior management and training tricks. But would I trust her off leash with the distraction of another off leash dog coming towards us? Not on your life. And have I mentioned lately that she's low drive, obsessed with pleasing and softer than melted butter? To her, clearing my throat is a nerve shattering correction. With Finn, I tried positive for about three minutes. Mouthy, pushy, wild, adolescent, nerves of steel, high prey drive, high pack drive, medium fight drive and head of stone. He was physically 6 months and behaviorally 8 weeks. No way was positive going to sort that out. He had NO positive behavior to reward and about 83 million negative behaviors to stop. The pulling bit? I don't expect heeling on walks, but I hate pulling. Velcro dog and Butt head were both were trained not to pull the same way. Leash is loose, we walk forward. Leash pulls tight - I stop dead and wait. Dog comes back to see why I'm waiting, or is called back to position, I praise and we move ahead. With Finn it took a couple of weeks to make it out of the driveway. It took maybe a month of daily walks before he 'understood' the signal of the tight leash and would reliably return to my side as soon as he felt tension. If I'd had a prong at the time it would have taken one lesson. We both would have found it a lot easier to communicate. Finn loves his prong, because with it I am talking his language. Guess which method I'd choose if I was training him again. Is his training positive? Heel yes!
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Post by amyjo on Mar 1, 2004 20:21:16 GMT -5
Heel Yes! I love it!!!!! Oh man - you actually waited him out for a couple of weeks before you could get out of the driveway! You really should be sainted
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Post by Richard on Mar 2, 2004 9:48:01 GMT -5
At the start of our walks, I'll let Rocky work out to the end of the 6 foot lead and back around...sorta like a warm up..I don't usually work the ob-heeling stuff right away....he's got the yips and yahoos (ok, he's excited to be out and about) and it would serve no purpose me popping him....after a few minutes we're near the area where I'll release him and he can just get the rest of the yips out...he never goes any further than 40 feet without looking back to see where I am, being the Mr. Security dog he is...
Anyway, when we re-leash, we start working the heel again..if he gets to far, I stop too and let him run to the end of the line....he gets the "auto-POP"....and knows he has to come back, circle behind me and line up again....it only takes a couple of times before he figures "ahh, the heck with it" and heels nicely. The best thing is I can use this off leash while heeling too..if he gets too far out front (say his backend by my left knee) I stop and say, "hey, where you supposed to be?" in a calm voice....Rocky stops, and circles behind me and takes up the heel again and we carry on.
-Richard
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Post by sibemom on Mar 2, 2004 16:20:30 GMT -5
Everyone is so smart here and all of your posts were brilliant. Yes I am in a giving mood today As it was said PP training can work great with certain dogs. Do you think in my case that would have even touched the surface NO WAY. All it took was ONE short walk with the pinch and no more pulling. After he got to understand that then we worked on loose leash. We do well now. I to like Richard just let him get the bugs out before we start working and that helps. I still cant say I am a fan of PP training (everyone can slap me now) but if it works in all stituations and that is the key then do it.
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Post by Willow on Mar 3, 2004 9:21:16 GMT -5
I would turn the tone down if other people were around while training him. Sigh. And how sad it is that the ones who want well behaved children or dogs are the ones who have to conform to the idiots in the world who have spoiled rotten out of control children and dogs because they do not believe in dicipline.
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