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Post by tmgrl3 on Jul 13, 2006 9:19:48 GMT -5
I just discovered this wonderful forum last night!! I have been reading posts and searching for information on the web for IBD for my mini-schnauzer, Cinderbella.
So….I have informed myself on many issues and as a result, over the 6 ½ years of her life, we have found a diagnosis for her chronic vomiting with occasional bloody diarrhea episodes…the diarrhea is in pretty good control with asulfadine.
We no longer give her vaccinations…new this year, although the vet talked me into Rabies…our dog is a completely indoor dog. My husband is blind, so when we got Cindy we trained her to “walk herself” to a box with papers. So she only goes out to the vet and grooming (every three months).
Last serious episode of vomiting WITH bloody diarrhea was Feb.23….on Feb. 28th my husband and I were both in the hospital for 2 weeks, and we had to “suddenly” disappear and have people Cindy didn’t know stay at the house.
No vomiting or diarrhea while they were here…none until right after her 3-year Rabies booster in April…since then, the diarrhea is in control, but we have vomiting patches, days at a time with some remission. When the vomiting is excessive in one day, I take her to vet for centrine shot and sub-c fluids.
She has been on Eukanuba Low Residue for about 4 years….nothing else…no scraps or treats, except for dry bits of rice cakes. We recently learned that out “dog sitters” didn’t give her the rice cakes when they were here,...brown rice is high residue, so since Monday this week, we dropped the rice cakes…she vomits once a day, but is eating little amounts 3 times a day and has formed stools.
She takes Pepcid 3 x a day, but when the vomiting picked up in June, 06, again, we tried Reglan, Prilosec….no good, even vomited with Reglan.
Our main vet said to let her vomit for now, and see how she does without rice cakes, as long as she doesn’t lose weight and doesn’t need rehydration. Then he may try dannatol.
Our other vet, who has infrequent office hours is the one who suggested and had an endoscope with biopsies done by a specialist in May, 06. All biopsies were positive for inflammatory bowel disease. Her Eosinophils in the blood were only blood anomalies and were high. Had all kinds of x-rays, TLI, rule out for pancreatitis, sonogram…all else was normal.
So….at this point, I am looking for suggestions….will see the vet who did the endoscope on Monday…he is considering Hills I/D…maybe steroids…which she has NEVER taken. I wouldn’t allow it to date. And no more vaccines from here forward.
Her current weight is 11.4 lbs. She is a well-bred tiny mini, and highest weight ever was around 13 pounds…..
Hopefully, I will find more information and we will continue to pursue finding a solution.
I have read about RAW diets and other treatments, but am reluctant to make major changes at this stage.
Tmgrl3
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Post by Aussienot on Jul 14, 2006 0:04:57 GMT -5
I sympathize with you. As I understand it, Inflammatory Bowel Disease can be controlled, but not cured. Control is dependent upon the proper selection of diet and medications, the correct long-term maintenance dosages, careful monitoring by the veterinarian and owner, and the absence of other concurrent diseases. Not the happy outcome you'd want for your pet dog.
My best advice is to listen to your veterinarian. I think too many people without strong medical knowledge have opinions on how to treat it in the internet world, but your vet is there seeing it first hand, and he or she probably has the right ideas.
You have probably done an elimination diet trial, where all the dog eats is a new bland protein source, such as duck, and a new carbohydrate, like potato, for several months to see if the condition improves. Duck and potato kibbles are readily available. If not, please discuss this option with your vet, and try to get one that has as few chemicals and trash ingredients as possible.
If it were my dog, I'd also contact a naturopath as an adjunct to veterinary treatment. I believe in keeping my dogs as natural and as chemical free as possible. IBD is paired with a compromised immune system, so there may be natural solutions that will assist with both problems. Digestive enzymes may be helpful- but I stress that I am not a veterinarian and I don't even play one on TV.
And as a raw feeder, I don't think that now is a good time for you to start feeding raw. Raw is more difficult for some dogs to digest - the diet build digestive strength; and while I think it is a good idea for most dogs, it's not ideal for dogs with digestive problems.
So sympathy but no magic bullets, sorry. Hopefully someone else will have a success story to share.
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Post by sibemom on Jul 14, 2006 6:25:45 GMT -5
You are right Aussie. I would check into some alternatives, like natural methods but of course still keeping in touch with your vet. I get concerned when they start throwing steroids at the dog. I know this is a very difficult thing to manage but it can be managed. I am also concerned about the Science Diet. I have a friend who's doxy had IBD and her vet had her switch to a Duck and Potato mixture and also put him on a digestive enzyme and he is doing GREAT . I know when Willow was going through her DIGESTIVE HELL it was on and off with bland diets, like cooked rice, cooked ground turkey, and low sodium broth. She is fine now and I add nothing extra to her diet. I think a consult with a Homeopathic vet would be a good idea so you can check out all available treatments. Good luck.
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Post by tmgrl3 on Jul 14, 2006 8:22:55 GMT -5
Bless you...your words give me comfort...to the extent that we have been doing all of what you have suggested....we do intend to see someone who may help down the road with natural remedies...but we already know there is no cure...and the flare-ups don't necessarily happen with stress or ingestion of something foreign...we have nothing in the house she can get into...we just got rid of an area rug...wool/berber with fringe, which we suspect she may pull at...certainly an irritant, just like the stuffing in toys... So I am pretty diligent about checking her toys as well. I sympathize with you. As I understand it, Inflammatory Bowel Disease can be controlled, but not cured. Control is dependent upon the proper selection of diet and medications, the correct long-term maintenance dosages, careful monitoring by the veterinarian and owner, and the absence of other concurrent diseases. Not the happy outcome you'd want for your pet dog. Yes...we fortunately have a vet practice close by that is one of the largest on Long Island...so I can get in seven days a week. They said she wouldn't even be alive if I hadn't gotten her there ASAP with the episodes that had severe vomiting and bloody diarrhea...they have been marvelous, very conservative when she was a puppy...starting with more "benign" medications... ....and she is from a top breeder/kennel of schnauzers...they only sell a pup or two a year as a pet...rest are for show. Cindy was a runt...she is tiny for the breed. We know that she will need asulfadine for life...it works...we can go up to 750 mg. a day if needed and add in lomotil...but now she is at 375 mg per day ...maintenance is around 125 mg. twice daily... Pepcid will be forever... Her food is probably a good one for her....once her stomach settles, she can go days, and has gone up to 8 weeks without vomiting or diarrhea...we pray for those intervals. She didn't vomit yesterday, so may be settling down...and taking out the brown rice cake bits as treats...may be a real help. It isn't "food" and it is high residue and we didn't know that until I went online to look at hi res diets...vet didn't know either. My vet is against all kinds of treats anyhow...we praise her every time she does her business...she is like a cat...she walks herself to the bathroom when she has to go...LOL We got a big plastic bin, that is used to for draining oil under cars...store cut out the front so she can step in...and it is lined with papers...she will go outdoors as well since, in the dead of winter I do like to get her coat on and walk her in the yard, but without vaccinations and with our high tick and flea population, summer outings are a no no. We test her for heartworm every spring just to be sure. Totally agree!! On Monday, I am going for a consult with the vet who did the endoscope, just to update him on what we have done since I saw him. For some reason, every time we tried to give her any of these sources, she absolutely refused to eat them...wouldn't touch cooked rice, chicken...and when we did potato, wouldn't go near it...duck and potato kibbles might be a possibility...I don't know of a brand, but can research one. She is a good eater most of the time...even when she has vomited....she eats her kibble 3 times a day with sometimes a Tablespoon in the evening. She seems to like her low res kibble. Only ignores it when tummy is very upset, but that is to be expected. Will see if we have any new ones in practice here on Long Island and I feel comforted that you mentioned now isn't a good time to start feeding raw....that would be my gut instinct after she has been on low res kibble most of her life. I know already that there are no magic bullets...but your post has helped me more than you can imagine. Hubby and I are speech pathologists...with some specialty in swallowing disorders....so that has helped us with Cindy. That was why we went with the scope and sonagram rather than with pancreatic biopsies....and the scope confirmed what we all suspected. Thank you so much for responding!!
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Post by tmgrl3 on Jul 14, 2006 8:31:16 GMT -5
I get concerned when they start throwing steroids at the dog. I know this is a very difficult thing to manage but it can be managed. I am also concerned about the Science Diet. I have a friend who's doxy had IBD and her vet had her switch to a Duck and Potato mixture and also put him on a digestive enzyme and he is doing GREAT . I know when Willow was going through her DIGESTIVE HELL it was on and off with bland diets, like cooked rice, cooked ground turkey, and low sodium broth. She is fine now and I add nothing extra to her diet. I think a consult with a Homeopathic vet would be a good idea so you can check out all available treatments. Good luck. Thanks, sibemom!! There have been suggestions a couple of times to use steroids, but I have refused...in fact, one of the young vets in the practice suggested the long-acting shot (two months) just last week. I said an emphatic no... Then when I saw the owner of the practice...more common sense approach, fewer meds...he agreed. He didn't want to switch to Hills I/D (they make Science Diet as well)....but the potato/duck kibble may be a good choice if she gets another sever episode. Our other dog, Willie, a Schnauzer pure-bred, but from a puppy-mill (before we knew better) had pancreatitis...my understanding is that the enzymes work best with pancreatitis and now we have pretty much ruled that out, which is good. Willie died at six of auto-immune hemolytic anemia. He would eat the cooked rice and chicken or turkey when he got sick. In a way, although Cindy's flare-ups can be bad, she has NO other health issues...except for some arthritis at this point, with a bit of licking of her leg fur, not excessive licking like Willie had. Also, she is thriving...her weight has been between her current weight (11.4 - 13.0 pounds...usually around 12 pounds). I will ask the vet on Monday about enzymes and about potato/duck kibble, since Cindy is kibble eater...thank goodness we started early on not giving her other "treats" in food. We did give her cheese and some fruit initially, but quickly eliminated everything so we could do an elimination diet. She doesn't expect "people" food at this point. Thanks again!! terri
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Post by tmgrl3 on Jul 14, 2006 8:37:32 GMT -5
One other question...I play with Cindy after she eats...and she loves to play tug and run after toys...could this vigorous play cause stomach acid to increase and lead to vomiting?
My husband thinks it's possible, so now, I don't play till a while after she eats....
Also, when we leave the house, her "treat" is that we open the front window shade. She barks like crazy...could a lot of barking for hours (or for however long she barks) contribute to stomach upset.
When the vet tech and his wife stayed her on quick notice for two weeks, while we were in hospital, they gave her no rice, no open shade and she didn't vomit once!!
Thanks!
terri
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Post by sibemom on Jul 14, 2006 9:24:03 GMT -5
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Post by tmgrl3 on Jul 14, 2006 10:34:40 GMT -5
Thanks, sibemom!
I have stopped the post meal crazy-play...save it for in between meals....good idea...we also only open up one shade for her to look out...LOL...when she has all three windows, she becomes the Mayoress of our street and she barks incesssantly..otherwise, rarely barks.
High fiber and high residue are about the same...one would avoid whole grains, for example, which, in Cindy's case would be the Whole grain brown rice we were giving her in what we thought was a "safe" treat. White rice is a safer bet, then for a low-residue diet...that's why white rice is used for IBD if dogs eat the rice and meat diet in between...but we just stick to the low-residue kibble...
Also, raw fruits and vegetables are out...well-cooked better...and dairy, restricted. Raw meats o.k. We assume she gets nutrition from her kibble. Her breeder has used kibble for her dogs for over 30 years...the Eukanuba low residue is 22 % protein...some people think that low residue kibble means low protein...I have seen some sites discussing how
9% protein isn't enough...but both the low res kibbles that are marketed most widely have 22% and 23% respectively protein. The Eukanuba also has beet pulp which is supposed to aid digestion. She really does well on it when she has her weeks of remission....
Also, her "remissions" have been broken, clearly, after ....vaccinations, boosters, heartworm meds...we never gave her Advantix (and now our vet won't even give it out).
So, maybe now that she is booster/vaccine/heartworm/flea med free, we may have longer periods of remission. Both vets agree now with me, but initially, they assumed, as they and we might have, that Cindy's gastroenteritis was flukey ....until we realized how quickly she can go from vomiting to bloody diarrhea.
As I said, last diarrhea episode was February, 06, with loose stool again, after 3-year Rabies' booster....and our vet uses the Rabies booster that is "more effective" but also can have more side effects.
So...yes...low residue seems to equate with lower fiber...but form is important, e.g. cooked vs. raw with and processed vs. whole (grains).
Many dogs love carrots raw, fruit....we found out pretty quickly we couldn't go this route, but just never thought of the rice cakes till about a week ago...
Diligence pays off...and lots of love!!
I am a full-time caregive to my hubby as well...blind, cardiac, diabetic, renal failure...so part of my diligence comes from being so with him.
I will definitely postpone post-meal play and limit window barking!
Cindy is so cute with her potty habits....when we come home from being out, she first walks herself to her papers to go to the bathroom, then comes to greet us.....Good training really pays off. I'm not a trainer, but do use conditioning and training techniques as a speech pathologist....so I'm sure it has helped.
We are even getting Cindy over the hump of the severe thunderstorm panic attacks....hard to get hubby on board. But we don't coddle her and "poor baby" her. Just go about our business and she settles down much more quickly now when there are severe boomers and fireworks.
Yes...she has inflammatory bowel disease (IBD) ...thankfully, not pancreatitis. My breeder said she has never had a schnauzer who has had pancreatitis, yet this breed does get it, but not necessarily as common as the vomiting...w/ or w/out diarrhea.. is for schnauzers.
I can't thank you enough. I have thoroughly enjoyed this forum in the short time since I discovered it....the articles are marvelous and have led me to do further exploration. The raw diet was my current question but that seems to not be a good option at this late a time in her history.
terri
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Post by tmgrl3 on Jul 15, 2006 13:44:10 GMT -5
One more question....while I won't be feeding Cindy a raw diet...(she hasn't vomited in three days now, seems to be doing well, eating...no rice cakes! and only on 250 mg. of asulfadine total...
I wonder if I could give her little bits of sliced rare roast beef....like the deli roast beef?
I gave her a bit the size of my baby finger, since she flipped when I opened the package ...she never does this with any food we eat, but she went right up to hubby's mouth while he took a bite.
thanks....terri
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