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Post by ladyarya on Jun 14, 2006 15:54:28 GMT -5
Hi all, back again ;D It's been a couple of months on a raw diet, and other than a temporary bout of grass allergies in Boo, their health has improved greatly. So I'm rather excited But while Boo is doing extrodinarily well and his anal glad problems have gone away completely (thank god!), Karma seems to be having trouble eliminating. It's like her stools are so dry she's having trouble passing them. And I've also noticed that after a meal she tends to get very warm and pants (which is unusual for her, before this I think I've seen her pant maybe 3 times in her life and she was always in a full sprint at the time) and then once the food is digested, shes not warm or panting anymore, but she has a little trouble passing it. So it seems like she's missing.... water? She drinks water and I'm not sure how I would get more water into her. She and Boo are eating the exact same thing and he has no problems at all. So I'm trying to figure out what I can add to her diet that would help her with this. Maybe fiber? Or pumpkin? When they were on kibble, his poop was so soft it wouldnt clean out his anal glands, but she was fine. Now that they're on raw, his are fine and she can't pass her's easily. So I figure there has to be some sort of middle ground to help her out without putting her back on kibble. Thanks!
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Post by sibemom on Jun 14, 2006 16:26:01 GMT -5
I would cut back on the amount of bone you are feeding her. To much bone will make their stools VERY HARD AND DRY. I would also add some Salmon Oil. If you add pumpkin or MORE FIBER it will just make it worse so for her you will need to make your ratio more meat than bone. First try that and if it is still to hard for her to poop then try the Salmon Oil. Raw fed dogs do not drink alot of water like kibble fed dogs do so she is probably getting what she needs.
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Post by ladyarya on Jun 14, 2006 16:59:10 GMT -5
Aha! I knew there had to be something I was overlooking! It's the salmon oil. Because of Boo's allergies I had been giving them a daily fish oil supplement. Now that you mention this, I just realized I hadn't given it to her in a while. I bet that's it. I'll cut down on the bone too to be sure. Thanks for that!
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Post by willow on Jun 15, 2006 7:25:02 GMT -5
Sibemom is correct and here is some more detail on what I have learned and how I feed raw. As far as the panting, my dogs do it occassionally, but seemed to do it more when I first switched over to raw. The question as to "why" they do it has been asked on the raw feeding list and no one seems to know for sure. Some dogs do it, some don't. Someone said it is usually when chicken is fed, because it is a "hot" food, and my dogs do seem to only do it when I feed chicken. Anyway: Here's the ratio and also what I tell people before they get started, or if they are nervous ect. #1 Read this website to dispel any myths you may have about raw feeding, such as it's dangerous etc. rawfed.com/myths/index.html#2 There is no one "correct" way to raw feed. Everyone does it a little differently, so do what ever works best for you and your dog(s) #3 A guideline to follow is 65% raw meaty bones, 35% muscle meat with no bone, and 5% offal (organs like liver and gizzards.) Some people also feed things like "green tripe", which is cow stomach, but I can't find it around here and doubt I would feed it anyway, as they say it's really terrible smelling! Feed as much of a variety as you can of any kind of raw meat and poultry. I skin chicken, and turkey, because it tends to make my dogs throw up, but some dogs tolerate the skin just fine. I also feed eggs a few times a week, and fish, but the fish is the only exception to the raw rule. It should be cooked, because it has a parasite that is very dangerous, so I stick to canned Mackeral or canned Salmon and I rinse it well first to get rid of most of the sodium content. Fresh is better if you can afford it, but cook it first. In the summer I occassionally supplement with a fish or salmon oil capsule and in the winter I give a Cod Liver Oil capsule, because CLO contains vitamin D. Fish oil and CLO can cause an allergy/itching in some dogs, and because I feed fish, I don't give it everyday. #4 As to amount to feed, usually it's 2% of your dogs ideal weight, (50# dog X 2% = 1# of food per meal), but I go by how my dogs look. If they are too thin, I feed more. If they start getting too fat, I cut back alittle. I feed twice a day and here's basically how I feed: If the dogs stool looks too hard and powdery, you are feeding too much bone and not enough muscle meat, and visa versa. The only vegetables/fruits I feed are left over cooked vegetables we may have at our dinner and when I am eating fruit I offer the dogs pieces as a "treat". Kara loves watermelon, cantaloupe and pears and she will eat the pears that fall from our tree in the fall, but Buddy is not a vegetable or fruit eater. It's o.k. to feed some veg's/fruit, but the emphasis should be on the meat, as dogs don't need the veg's etc., and in fact, most pass right through unless they are cut up fine or mashed. I also feed left over cooked meat "scraps" from our meals, as long as they don't contain a lot of fat, and I don't ever feed ham or the fat from ham! If I feed pork hocks, (raw of course), I cut the tough skin off first. For some reason, yogurt makes my dogs "gack"...(cough and vomit,) so I only feed it as a treat occassionally. If the dog is getting a lot of chicken bones etc., I don't feel the yogurt or other dairy is necessary for calcium, because they are getting enough in the bones. NEVER FEED COOKED BONES. These are the ones that can cause problems because they are dried out and will splinter. Some people feed according to "prey model" (large meals every 2nd or 3rd day like they say a wild dog/wolf would eat), and feed things like whole chickens or turkeys (depending on how big your dog is) and large pieces of meat/bone etc., but I do not and my dogs do just fine. Loey
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Post by sibemom on Jun 15, 2006 7:38:37 GMT -5
SEE ;D I knew you would get more help from our RESIDENT RAW FEEDING EXPERT ;D Loeys dogs are BEAUTIFUL so the way she described feeding is a very good plan to follow
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Post by willow on Jun 15, 2006 10:27:21 GMT -5
Awwww, shucks! Thanks Sibemom, but I hardly consider myself an expert on anything. I am also learning as I go, like everyone else. ;D One thing I forgot to say about the 65% raw meaty bones. That's exactly what they are. Raw bones with as much meat on them as you can get. I never feed recreational bones...all bone, little or no meat. Recently our local grocer had country style pork ribs for .99 cents a lb., so I bought about 20# and froze them. They are so big and meaty, I actually have to cut some of the meat off of them before feeding to my dogs and save it for another meal, because it is just too much for them at one meal. When ever I have them thawing for a meal, my husband walks by and shakes his head and . He thinks it is a waste to give good meat like that to the dogs! I always tell him..."that's what you know."
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Post by dragoness on Aug 1, 2006 22:08:21 GMT -5
If you guys insist on raw feeding, just remember that your dogs will probably be passing Salmonella in their stools even if they aren't sick from it. Be extra careful when pooper scooping, and scoop immediately and religiously if you're in a household with small children who always have their hands in their mouths.
Also be sure you've checked into all the nutritional requirements and that you're feeding an appropriate supplement to finish out those requirements. One of my friends in our nutrition class tried with all the data to put together a complete home-cooked diet without supplements, and it was just about impossible. There is a website out there (I don't have the link, sadly) that will make a custom supplement if you send them your menu.
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Post by sibemom on Aug 1, 2006 22:29:59 GMT -5
I always love to disagree on this subject When dogs are fed a prey model raw diet there is no need for any supplements. They get all they need from the raw foods. Wolves do not order any extra additives to put in their diet and they do not have little cookstoves that they carry around with them when it's time to eat. I had one dog who only got raw chicken with the occasional raw egg with the shell. I did give CLO in the winter and Salmon Oil in the summer THAT WAS IT. I had a very long discussion at an open house for our local feed mill with a nutritionist from one of the dog food companys, and it was funny because when I asked the question WHY their company felt it was so important to develope a dog food that included veggies, when dogs are carnivours, the answer was "TO SOOTH THE MOMS " We have come to believe that our dogs should be fed like us, and for the most part I suppose if we choose to feed them veggies it does'nt hurt them but in reality THEY DO NOT NEED THEM. A good variety of raw protein sources with the right proportion of meat and bone makes an extremly healthy dog ;D It's your choice but supplementing can cause more damage than good. JMHO
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Post by dragoness on Aug 2, 2006 7:54:02 GMT -5
well, that is a common misperception- dogs are not carnivores. Dogs are omnivores, like people, bears, raccoons, etc. They lean more towards the meat side than a bear or a person, but they are omnivores nonetheless. Nutritionists have done extensive research in dogs to determine their dietary requirements, and have analyzed these diets to see if they measure up. They're fine in most macronutrients, but they are often high in calcium if bones are fed (very bad for growing large breed puppies-- it will cause bone development diseases such as panosteitis, osteochondritis dissecans, and physitis). If bones are not part of a home-cooked diet, they tend to be low in calcium. Vitamins and microminerals such as iodine are also frequently deficient, and these deficiencies don't always show up with short-term feeding: only after long-term use of the diet will there be problems, so it's easy to assume all is well.
I by far agree with you that supplementing does more harm than good if you're supplementing a quality commercial diet. However, if you're feeding a home-formulated raw diet, you had best do your homework. Hit the books, and be sure that your supplement is correct and desn't cause excesses in the diet.
And really, why are we so stuck on the idea of feeding dogs like wild wolves? Not only are dogs not wolves in many important ways, wolves aren't really that healthy. They don't live as long as dogs, they have bad teeth if they are lucky enough to live long enough to get them, and they are often undernourished especially during demanding times such as pregnancy and nursing. Our dogs deserve better than a wild diet, and we have the ability to give them better.
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Post by sibemom on Aug 2, 2006 10:26:01 GMT -5
Well THAT IS A MISCONCEPTION and I would like to know WHERE you get your information? WE made dogs in omnivours WE HUMANS, just like WE made dogs into furry fourlegged children. My dogs do NOT GRAZE on grass nor do they require fruits or vegetables or grains. It is this misunderstanding that has made dog food companies into the multi billion dollar industry that they are today. This is an issue that has caused more debate than Global Warming but in this case steps can be taken to FIX the problem (enter soap box removal team ) OH and I should add, breeds prone to Pano etc.... who are fed a RAW diet Have a 98% fewer instance of getting that and other bone disorders, because raw feed puppies grow at a more normal rate than kibble fed pups. Also remember the "Nutrition EXPERTS" are taught their way of thinking BUT some of the new teachings are proving to be contrary to old. Science is one of those things that has LOTS of room for discussion, it would be the same debate as or MAN CAME FROM APES or GOD CREATED MAN! Years ago you did not have all the dogs with the health issues and suppressed immune problems like we do today. Everything we HUMANS chalk up to progress sometimes turns around and BITES YOU WHERE THE SUN DOES NOT SHINE! Not only has the health and well being of our dogs been compromised but our own health as been tainted. Additives, artifical colors, aritfical sweetners, processing chemicals, all of this has had it's impact on not only the human side but the animal side as well. (Soap box removers return ) Excuse me now I have to go PLUCK A CHICKEN SO MY DOGS CAN EAT LUNCH
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Post by willow on Aug 2, 2006 10:51:01 GMT -5
dragoness, Sibemom is correct.
As far as the Samonella "bogy man" arguement, It is easier to get Salmonella as well as e.coli from your favorite restaurant than from home cooking or from your dog, so while your arguement is a common one, it isn't correct. As long as you use what should be "normal" hygiene, such as cleaning cutting boards, counters and knives, and washing your hands thoroughly after handling the raw meat, there is no danger of contracting it. As to contracting Salmonella from a dogs poop, I have never heard of that happening and would like to see your reference source. It is a well known fact, however, that humans can and do more readily contract intestinal parasites, including tape worms, from their dogs.
Your arguement about wolves not living as long as dogs is not valid either, because living in the wild poses a whole lot of dangers which leads to their early demise, most of which are human caused. Wolves in captivity, which are fed raw meat, live just as long as dogs do, which leads to another controversy.
Raw advocates say dogs are meant to live much longer than the 12-14 years they do now, and will if raw fed, and esp. if raw fed for several generations. It is the commercial dog food, along with all the other chemicals put into their bodies that cause the illnesses/early deaths we see today.
At any rate, this has been debated many times here and on other boards so I would suggest we move this to the " debate" section from here on out. Thanks! ;D
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