|
Post by DivineOblivion19 on Nov 13, 2005 10:50:53 GMT -5
Let me start off by saying that I am the only person who works at the clinic (who isn't a doctor) who takes a natural approach to things. It is difficult because I disagree with a lot of things. The doctors have their own opinions but, IMHO, treat with unneeded meds sometimes. Having said that, you can believe that they usually think I'm crazy. But I love the doctors I work for because they know their shizzy and I trust them with my dog's lives!
OK! Here we go..
Our clinic is FINALLY looking into the 3 year DAP vaccine by Intervet. This has got me all excited. ;D
But the boss went to a seminar and they were talking about the fact that it doesn't cover some things and people will still have to give annual boosters for Lepto, Lyme, Corona Virus and Bordetella.
Well, I vaccinate for Lepto only because we have been seeing it a lot our here and with the amount that my dogs are outside in the woods and the amount of raccoons and such that we have out here I feel I need to vaccinate for Lepto. We use the Lepto 4 vx from Fort Dodge.
But I do not vx for Lyme or Bordetella. I just don't think that the Bordetella vx works that well. I can't tell you how many dogs I've seen come back from boarding and need to be treated for kennel cough even though they had the vx. So I think I'd rather treat the kennel cough than vx my girls all the time. But Divina goes everywhere with me and is in contact with lots of other dogs and is considered at "high risk" of infection. My boss thinks I'm crazy for not vaccinating.
And then there's the Lyme vx. I refuse to give this vx because of the reading I've done on it that it can actually cause the dog to be symptomatic of Lyme disease after being vaccinated. I think I would rather treat my dogs for the disease than vaccinate them. My boss thinks I'm even crazier to not vaccinate for Lyme because we go camping and there are loads of ticks there. I use frontline plus (only when we go camping) and it kills the ticks quickly and in order for them to get Lyme the tick has to be attached for at least 24 hours. Also Fort Dodge is claiming that their new Lyme vx has healing properties for a dog that has the disease (according to my boss who just went to a seminar).
Ok, now my questions....
What do you think of the 3 year DAP vx by Intervet?
What do you think about vaccinating for Lepto? Should I titer test or just give the vx? Titer testing can get mighty pricey...
Do you think it's crazy of me to not vx for Bordetella and Lyme even though my dogs are at risk?
Have you heard anything about the Fort Dodge Lyme vx that claims to be good for a dog with Lyme? If so I'd like to know more. My boss still hasn't gotten me the info on that.
Do you feel the need to vx for Corona virus? People are worried that if we stop vxing for it then it will come back. Any thoughts on this?
|
|
|
Post by FlatCoatedLover on Nov 13, 2005 13:54:54 GMT -5
After nearly a years of immunology and virology I will never give myself or my animals another vaccine. The way the immune system works is that it is exposeds to a "bug" (bacterial, viral, worm or whatever) and it mounts two responses. The first is by the surfaces cells that basicly "eat" and digest the invader. These cells will then process it an present it to the T-cell and B-cells so that anti-bodies and memory cells are produced against that invader. The anti-bodies will circulate until their lifespan is up but the memory cells remain in stasis until they are confronted with the same invader again and then they reactivate and they body quickly rids the body of the invader. This will occur reguardless of wether there are antibodies circulating in the blood stream. So one exposure (either naturally or by vaccine) will provide lifelong immunity for that strain of that illness. The problem with KC is that there are so many strains and it is highly mutagentic that the vaccine offers little to no protections anyway. For example, my neighbor is a natural rearing breeder of pugs. She feeds a raw diet, does not vaccinate at all for anything and treats homeopathically. Her two oldest (8 and 10 years) recently had titers drawn so she can liscense without vaccinating. Both had high circulating antibodies for rabies even though they have never had the vaccine but probably came in contact thru the sheded virus of a dog who recently was. For kicks she had titers done for distemper and parvo and those where high as well. None of her dogs have ever "had" any of those disease but developed immunity thru normal community contact. The first problem with vaccines is that they bypass more than half of the bodies mechanisms for fighting infection and developing immunity. If the virus or other bug is not introduced thru normal infectious channels then they body is not able to mount a proper response. The next thing that is wrong with vaccines they are normally given in combinations of 2-6 at a time. (In nature an animal is not going to be assulted with that many infectious agents all at once) This overloads the immune systems and can and does lead to immunodeficiencies. This can be diminished by insisting on only getting a single vaccine at a time and spacing them atleast two weeks apart. Next is that they contain large amounts of preservatives that have been proven to be neurogenic, carcinogenic and mutagenic to mammals (dogs, cats and humans). This risk can be someone diminushed by insisting on single dose vials which don't contain preservatives because there are not multiple jabs into a single bottle. The final problem with vaccines are the "immune inhancers" that are in them. Since they have a long period of action the immune system remains in a heightened state which can and does lead to hypersensitivities and autoimmune diseases. Another problem, less with the vaccine and more with vet, is that vaccines are commonly given to unwell animals, like those with obvious skin conditions, runny eyes, swollen gums and gingiva or other signs of unhealth, causing a further taxation of their system. The vaccine lables and inserts clearly say to only give to healthy animals but they are clearly given in many cases to those who are not. In addition there are many studies that show that vaccines actually cause disease. The "side effects" of the rabies vaccine are actually mild symptoms of rabies (nerve problems, obcessive behaviors etc...). Polio vaccine causes polio (fever and paralysis) except they call it aceptic meningitis when it occurs after vaccination. This viruses and bacteria and other infectives are not problems for "healthy" individuals (dogs,cats, humans) as the immune system will take care of it. Not to stay there won't be some outward signs of illness but they get over it rather quickly and left no worse for the wear. Here are some great links to look at regarding vaccines and there safety and effectiveness. truthaboutvaccines.org/www.angelfire.com/biz/froghollerfilas/VaccBlanco.htmlwww.whale.to/vaccines.html(sorry this is so long)
|
|
|
Post by DivineOblivion19 on Nov 13, 2005 22:56:22 GMT -5
Wow, thanks so much. No apology needed for that being so long.
It really makes me nervous to totally stop giving vaccines.... I would love to do it but I know I wouldn't feel well about it...
What about horses?? I have 2 horses that are getting shot up all the time and in all honesty I don't know a damn thing about equine vaccines. I work in small animal and am pretty ignorant to equine diseases and vaccines. If you (or anyone else) have a website for me that would be amazing!
I hate giving my dogs excess things but I would hate to not do something and in turn they get sick. I guess I'm just so torn. I don't want something that I did (or didn't do) cause my dog harm. Damned if I do, damned if I don't.
|
|
|
Post by willow on Nov 15, 2005 10:13:52 GMT -5
Yes, thank you FCL for taking the time to address the vaccine issue.
I was on the TruthAboutVaccine list for quite awhile and I will not vaccinate my dogs again either....except for rabies (ugh) because that is by law, but I make darn sure the Vet puts down that it is a 3 yr. rabies instead of 1 yr.! I also do not titer for the reasons you listed. It is basically a waste of $$$$.
I also raw feed my dogs, which boosts their immune system.
I basically live "in the country". (On the edge of a very small (pop 434, town) and there are ponds, fields and woods right outside of my back door and that is where I take my dogs to run everyday.
There are many large and small "critter's" out there that we may encounter on any given day, and often do, and have not had a problem to date with them contracting anything from the wild animals. They have, however, contracted KC from taking them to the groomer, and the only place I can trace the sarcoptic mange Kara and my other BC got several years ago was from the Vets office, because there was another dog in there who had it when I took Kara in.
As you said, there are a lot of breeder's now who raw feed and who do not give vaccines and they are raising much healthier litter's because of it. It was from one such breeder that I learned about raw feeding and not vaccinating and I will be eternally grateful to her.
Divine, I understand that it is a very scarey idea to not vaccinate, because we are so brainwashed into believing if we do not that our dogs will get a serious illness and die.
Vaccinating does not assure that they will not get what they are vaccinated against and will not die from it. In fact, as FCL said, many dogs have serious reactions from the vaccinations, and even if your dog does not get an accute reaction, the vaccine can and likely will cause a chronic illness of one sort or another.
Think about it. The more we vaccinate, the more "chronic" problems our animals seem to have. Chronic ear problems, for one, cancer for another. Cancer being on the rise is also linked to feeding commercial dog foods, and diseases like cancer, diabetes, etc. are linked to the combination of vaccinating and feeding commercial dog foods.
Feeding our dogs commercial dog foods is comparable to us eating a steady diet of junk foods, fast foods and (the proper name excapes me at the moment) all the pre-pkg'd foods on the market that taste good but that are loaded with ingredients that gradually chip away at our health and cause us problems....the same ones our dogs experience.
|
|
|
Post by FlatCoatedLover on Nov 16, 2005 17:02:03 GMT -5
The thing is, once they are vaccinated they are vaccinated. Getting "boosters" is not going to make thme any more immune. For what it's worth, I don't do the rabies either. In all the places I have lived with Lucy the state/county/whoever will except titers (even though every one knows they are meaningless) in lieu of giving the vaccine, so I have just done those. If there ever come a time when the titer is not excepted I will have to come up with something else because I will not subject my pooch to that again (It is the vaccine with the most and worst side effects).
|
|
|
Post by Nicole on Nov 18, 2005 20:45:46 GMT -5
I don't vaccinate either. Reign has not had a vaccination since his one year booster except for rabies and had I thought that the state would accept titers, I would have looked into that.
Sunny came to me vaccinated, however, he has not had any in the two years I have had him. My vet said to me...we have spent so much time eradicating these diseases... to make me feel guilty and I said yes but at what expense. When was the last time you saw a healthy dog get parvo. He said not for ages. I said what is worse...having the dog get a disease that he can recover from or have his immune system permanently damaged or get cancer. I will take the former.
When Sunny had his allergy problem last year I went to look for a new vet. I was just looking around and went in and spoke to one. They said they do not do three year rabies only one year. They said they don't carry the three year...well surprise there is no difference between the one year and three year...how scary that they didn't know that. I said why. They said because we have to make sure the dog comes in. OK. So you poison the dog unnecessarily so that you can make sure....what...that his teeth are clean. That makes me ill.
I will not vaccinate Sunny again. And rabies time I am going to see if the state will accept titers. We did titers with Reign BTW which were off the chart for parvo and distemper. He must have been exposed or had very high immunity from the vaccines. Either way, he is protected. I don't do titers anymore because even if they are low, I won't vaccinate because it doesn't mean he isn't protected only that the body has not had to summon up the antibodies.
I do believe in puppy shots (given seperately..not 7 in 1) and one year boosters though. That is my comfort level for immunity.
|
|
|
Post by willow on Nov 19, 2005 10:36:22 GMT -5
I believe it was on the TruthAboutVaccines list that I heard the phrase: "Giving vaccination boosters does not make a dog more immune." The only reason I give Rabies is because I have to have proof of it to get their license. I will call and see if they will accept Titer's instead of the vaccine. If so, my dogs will not get the rabies ever again either. Like you, Nicki, my dogs came vaccinated, but they also came before I found out how dangerous giving vaccines is, so I continued to vaccinate them for several years (except Buddy,) He came vaccinated to the hilt a year ago this Aug., and has not been to the Vet since. I also doubt that he had any vaccinations before the rescue took him in at age 7, because of where he came from, but I don't know that for sure. While on the subject: I have been hearing a lot about the Tamaflu (is that the name of it?) vaccine. I heard people are in a panic over the Avian flu scare and are lining up to get the Tamaflu, eventhough it hasn't been shown to prevent the Avian flu! Since, according to what I read, the Tamaflu contains live virus, they are now expecting more cases of flu this season, because it is said that people can shed/excrete the flu virus from their nose for several days after receiving the vaccine. Scary, isn't it?
|
|
|
Post by Nicole on Nov 19, 2005 10:55:11 GMT -5
Yes it is very scary...but also some people have died from the Tamiflu. The manufacturer is quoted as saying but more people haven't died than have died from the drug. That was in the paper yesterday so who knows if it is true but yes it is very scary and how people are going to start hoarding it. I also wanted to mention something else about vets and vaccines. I stumbled upon a vet board (don't know how I got in because they are usually only open to licensed vets) but it was a discussion, more like the minutes of a meeting, about how mail meds were hurting their business and how they were going to spin the propaganda to get people to buy from the vets...scaring people into thinking that the mail meds are bad etc. And also how the new three year vaccine protocol is a compromise so that vets don't lose all of their business when vaccines give immunity for longer. They have known this for a long time and yet it took so long for them to even suggest the three year protocol. That really made me so sick...That money and business come before health. Welcome to reality.
|
|
|
Post by willow on Nov 19, 2005 11:16:15 GMT -5
Wow! That is interesting about you getting into that list for Vets and what you read! Of course, anyone with brains knows this is what is going on in the whole world of medicine and it sickens me the way people buy into their lies. Reminds me of a discussion we are having on a list for ACL problems in dogs. We all give supplements and I just heard about a "new" glucosamine product with NAG (N-acetyl-glucosamine) which is supposed to be safe for diabetics to use, because it does not lower the blood sugar or some such thing like the glucosamine sulfate and hydrochloride do. One lady said she is "skeptical" of a product if the one who is giving it glowing reports will make a profit off of selling it. I asked her if that isn't true of everything we buy? Someone is making a profit somewhere. Also welcome to reality.
|
|