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Kara
May 17, 2005 18:25:11 GMT -5
Post by willow on May 17, 2005 18:25:11 GMT -5
I am crying right now, but because I am so ;D ;D I have been treating Kara's leg conservatively with supplements etc., because as I said, the Vet I am taking her to now thinks the problem is in her hip and not her knee. In the past weeks, she has begun to put more weight on it, and although she still limps, some days it is hardly noticable. She has been wanting to come upstairs with Buddy and I, but I knew the steps were too much for her and put her bed downstairs. Just a bit ago Buddy and I came upstairs and a little later I heard some thing in the bedroom, went to check, and Kara was lying on Buddy's blanket!!!! My girl made it up the steps!!!! I did notice she has been flying up and down the deck steps lately as if they aren't there, but there isn't as many of them. I am "cautiously optimistic" at this point, but it's soooo good to have my lil' girl back upstairs with us! ;D
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Kara
May 17, 2005 19:51:52 GMT -5
Post by Brooke on May 17, 2005 19:51:52 GMT -5
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Kara
May 19, 2005 4:36:15 GMT -5
Post by Nicole on May 19, 2005 4:36:15 GMT -5
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Kara
May 19, 2005 14:48:06 GMT -5
Post by willow on May 19, 2005 14:48:06 GMT -5
Yes, I shudder to think of how it would be if I hadn't done the research, jointed the Conservative Management list on Yahoo, and gotten the 2nd opinion, but had let the lst Vet do the Cruciate surgery on her! A really, really scarey thought!
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Kara
May 20, 2005 20:07:13 GMT -5
Post by Laura on May 20, 2005 20:07:13 GMT -5
Good for you and Kara , sometimes the path of least resistance is the right answer, and in this case worked wonders!
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Kara
Jun 2, 2005 8:40:49 GMT -5
Post by willow on Jun 2, 2005 8:40:49 GMT -5
What a roller coaster we are on! Last week Kara ran after a rabbit and wouldn't put weight on her leg again, so I made an appt. with the Vet and took her in yesterday for more x-rays to see if we could determine just what is causing her problem. The x-rays still look good. No spine or hip problems that would account for her limping. She also manipulated her knee again and said this time it did feel "bigger" than the other one, but she did not hear any of the tell tale sound that goes along with ACL injury. She said she possibly only has a partial tear. Also, after the manipulation, she was really ouchy and last night would not put weight on that leg again, so now I am certain it is her ACL after all. What is throwing this Vet off is that Kara does not yelp when her leg is manipulated and she said they "always" do if it is the ACL. Well, after talking to Sheri from the Aussie rescue, and a couple of the volunteers in the Lab rescue, the Vet is wrong! (Why am I not surprised?) They have had dogs that did not react to manipulation and it was the ACL. Sheri also told me she had an Akita (5 yrs. old) who blew both legs and had surgery on both legs within a year, and then two years later (2002) died of cancer! Blowing the other knee within 6 months of surgery on the first knee is very common. With Sheri's Akita, she blew the 2nd knee the very day the Vet gave her the "all clear" to resume normal activity! However, the Vet also said, which I tend to agree with is that due to Kara's age, she does not recommend surgery, so for now she is on supplements and pain meds. Right now she is on Metacam once a day, but I will switch her to Tramadol (Ultram) when it comes in. I am just holding my breath afraid she is going to blow the other leg. If that happens, well.............who knows? But I am trying not to think of that and will deal with it IF and when it happens.
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Kara
Jun 2, 2005 17:30:58 GMT -5
Post by Nicole on Jun 2, 2005 17:30:58 GMT -5
How frustrating!! Try not to focus on what can possibly happen. I think that your plan of restricted activity and the pain meds will help a great deal. Take one day at a time. I pray that Kara feels better.
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Kara
Jun 4, 2005 14:18:16 GMT -5
Post by willow on Jun 4, 2005 14:18:16 GMT -5
I feel much better after posting on the Conservative Managament list on yahoo and hearing several success stories about older dogs who did not have the surgery and who are now doing great from 1 to 3 years out.
Another thing I want to mention, is that I posted the information about Tramadol to see if anyone knew anything about it, and after hearing what they had to say, I have decided not to try it on Kara after all.
Here is what was said:
Hi Lois,
I hate to burst the tramadol bubble, but it is an opioid, like morphine and codeine. A small percentage of dogs and people have bad reactions to opioids. Dakota had an unrelated surgery in early April (tumor-benign) and he was given morphine at the clinic and tramadol for pain at home. He apparently is one of those dogs that reacts negatively which really isn't a surprise since he has always reacted poorly to sedation. I only gave him 2 tramadols (50 mg) and would never give them to him again although it is hard to say if given without morphine in his system if his reaction would have been so negative. Also, please bear in mind that I am extremely leery of drugs and their side effects/reactions so I would be hesitant to give something strictly for pain relief. Of course if the pain was sufficient I would do whatever was required. But I believe with the boys' arthritis and cruciate issues, anti-inflammatories are better for the symptoms. Also, tramadol (also called ultram) can be addictive in people. On a more optimistic note, my dad takes ultram occasionally for pain and has no reactions.
There was also an FDA recall of tramadol made by Able Labs last week so make sure your tramadol is not from one of those lots. I have an entire bottle of tramadol and would be happy to redistribute it if you want.
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Kara
Jun 5, 2005 6:23:34 GMT -5
Post by sibemom on Jun 5, 2005 6:23:34 GMT -5
Loey I think the path you are taking with Kera is the right one. Right now she is not in any severe pain and you seem to be keeping her comfy with minimal excersie. I think that is the best thing you can do. Hopefully with the supplements you are giving the problem will lessen and hopefully she will only have boughts with this on and off. If it gets to painful you always have options to medicate. At first when Dr. Kim proposed surgery I was all for that but then when Dr. Linda had her doubts about wether that was the problem I had some concerns. I think with waiting and investigating you have hit on a good treatment plan so far
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Kara
Jun 5, 2005 8:13:03 GMT -5
Post by Richard on Jun 5, 2005 8:13:03 GMT -5
Loey,
I agree with Ann...follow your current treatment path. You are all over this and I know you'll do it right. Kara will be better soon!!
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GWPSage
Trained
Back in the saddle again
Posts: 201
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Kara
Oct 29, 2005 19:13:18 GMT -5
Post by GWPSage on Oct 29, 2005 19:13:18 GMT -5
I know this is an old post, but I felt I might add some nutritional suppliments you might consider adding to her diet, if you havent included these already. MSM, works great for dogs reduces inflamation, and rebuilds cartilage, also has additional healing properties. Also Hyaluronic Acid, there is a company that sells pure HA in liquid form OTC. The company is called Hyalun. Their HA is derrived from a lab grown bacteria. HA assists in the production of synovial fluid within the joint it is extremely reasonable. You give the dog 1ml orally, I think the 60day supply is $40 and you will see results within 5 days with no loading dose. There is a very mild salty taste. My mother even takes it for her knees it is an amazing supplement! Sounds like anything might be worth a try. Hope Kara is doing well
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Kara
Oct 30, 2005 9:24:19 GMT -5
Post by willow on Oct 30, 2005 9:24:19 GMT -5
Thanks, Sage for the reply. I was due for an "update" anyway. ;D
I have heard of HA and will check into it further.
Right now I have Kara on Joint Guard Plus, which contains Glucosamine, Chondroitin, Green Lipped Mussel, as well as some other ingredients. I also saw an add on tv for a product called Cetyl M (Cetyl Myristoleate), which is also supposed to promote production of fluid in the joint. This product also contains Glucosamine-HCL, Garlic Root, Bromelain, Boswellin Extract, Ginger Root Extract and Yucca Extract...all of which are supposed to be good for pain/inflammation. The product is advertised as being good for arthritis in the joints, and I like being able to give two tablets a day instead of all the separate ones that I was giving.
After following the CM list for all these months, and talking to other's who have had dogs with ACL tears/ruptures, I have come to the conclusion that the dogs that have had the surgery generally do not do any better than the ones who have not. One lady wrote that her young dog has had 3 traditional surgeries and they have all failed. Now the surgeon wants to do a TPLO, but is concerned that the bone is not strong enough, because of all the "holes" in it from the traditional surgeries! After reading up on TPLO too, I know I would never have that done on one of my dogs.
Early on I also concluded that initially restricting the dogs activity for 6-8 weeks, (only taking them out on leash to potty), which they say is necessary to allow for scar tissue to build up and stabalize the knee, I found that most dogs, upon resuming more activity, either re-injured the first knee or "blew" the other knee, so I basically did not restrict Kara's activity, although I did restrict how far she walked and still do. At first she would only walk about 1/4 mile and then stop and look at me and when I would ask her if she was "ready to go home", she would turn and head for home. She can now walk/run about a mile. Sometimes she wants to go further, but the couple times I let her, she was stiffer later, so I only go that far now and stop.
I know she is never going to be 100% and upon looking back, she wasn't from the day I got her. She had a weird running gait, and I also heard that an ACL tear/rupture can be "coming on" for a long time before they actually rupture it.
My goal now is to just give her as normal a life as possible and to keep her as pain free as possible, and hope she doesn't blow her other knee.
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GWPSage
Trained
Back in the saddle again
Posts: 201
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Kara
Oct 30, 2005 10:31:11 GMT -5
Post by GWPSage on Oct 30, 2005 10:31:11 GMT -5
Hey Just wanted to give you some feedback on some of your supplements. (re read your post and see you are feeding tablets, but felt I should keep this info here just in case someone else decides to feed horse supplements) Are you using horse supplements? If so pay close attention to the Copper content in them, as dogs are unable to tolerate really high levels of copper which can lead to liver damage. Bromelain is a pinapple extract, therefore it contains fructose sugar, MSM would be a healthy alternative as it is 99.8% pure MSM and it does the same job. (The .2% is moisture not added flavor) If you are looking for a good GL, condroitin supplement consider adding some Flex free GL max, (I think that is the one with no added flavor) If not Its the flex free GL by VIta flex (Its where I work ) Either way Its either in a plain base, or dextrose base. If you have any specific questions about the formulation if I cant answer them. I can definitely email the lab and get specifics. This supplement is souch a good value in the MAX form as very little goes a very long way. OH and it is labeled for Dogs so VF knows it WORKS! I would reccomend our HA, but we only have it available in a gel form and its just not very econimical. But the Hyalun is awesome! Have you seen the new stiffle surgery they are doing on horses that have locking stiffle problems? Its less invasive, they lose no joint support, and they can be used immediately! Perhaps you could find a vet that can perform that surgery on a dog. What they do is cut tiny incisions in the tendon to promote scar tissue growth. Good luck with Ms Kara
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Kara
Oct 31, 2005 9:09:26 GMT -5
Post by willow on Oct 31, 2005 9:09:26 GMT -5
Thanks again Sage. I welcome all advise/comments on ACL injuries. The CetylM I am giving is esp. for dogs, says "for dogs" on the bottle, ;D although they do have a formula for horses too.
I also forgot to mention that I am also giving MSM and gelatin. I heard about the gelatin from my dentist and I got it on line. When I inquired from the company about it they said this one is 100% collagen, where the flavored ones (which we would not give to a dog anyway!) or Knox only contain like 2%!!
I have a friend who has an older Lab with ruptures in both knees and when he began to give the gelatin, he noticed a huge improvement in his Lab. I also feel it has helped Kara.
Right now I have tons of stuff I bought to try and did not use up most of it, because I felt it didn't help or I heard of something that worked better for someone else, but I will definitely get the Hyalun and try that and thank you very much for the suggestion!
I will let you know how it works.
Kara is putting full weight on her leg and does not limp most days, but when she "over does" the exercise, she is stiff when she gets up after lying down. Buddy, my BC who is 8, almost 2 yrs. younger than Kara, is also beginning to show signs of arthritis, so I have him on the supplements too!
Loey
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