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Post by amyjo on Apr 24, 2005 8:32:12 GMT -5
Might I suggest adding Raw Meaty Bones Promote Health by Tom Lonsdale DVM to your collection?
The truth about raw feeding is that if your dog is young and healthy then you may not ever really "get it" until you are driven by necessity.
But I have seen arthristis pain all but disapear. I have heard from countless people who's epi dogs go from a daily seizure to one every other month or so.
My own personal story is a cancer that was supposed to come back and kill my dog by now is still blissfully absent. Diet? you bet! Luck? that too.
I personally know a breeder who's third generation of no vaccination - raw fed puppies survived parvo with only re-hydration as treatment.
All antecdotal I admit - but if you think an AFFCO feeding trial is "science" you got another thing coming!
You can't really argue with mother nature. I mean I guess you can but really why?
Do I understand you devil's advocacy and nay saying?.. you bet I do. Because to admit raw is best is to admit that you haven't been doing the best for your dogs.
Been there - done that. Do yourself a favor and read the book. Good luck to you.
Amy
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Post by Kona on Apr 24, 2005 14:37:07 GMT -5
Thank you, I actually have that one on my (very long) wish list. I actually can't do raw yet because my 11-week-old puppy is being raised to be an assistance dog, so she doesn't actually belong to me. I have to raise her by the rules that I was given, including what food she gets.
My 13-year-old dog has been on L&R kibble her whole life, and I don't see a reason to change anything now. I know that we're just talking anecdotes here, but she has never been sick a day in her life. No tumors, no ear infections, no kennel cough, no seizures, no nothing.
As I say to my students, there are few things that are black-and-white, carved-in-stone truths, and therefore "If It Ain't Broke, Don't Fix It."
Sure, if I had a dog that had seizures and tumors and parvo and all of those other things that you mentioned I'd be looking for a solution. But I don't. I have a dog that looks years younger than her actual age, and she's healthy to boot. If you have a dog that doesn't do well on one type of diet, does that mean that all dogs should stop eating that diet? Of course not.
"But kibble isn't natural!" Neither is microwaved popcorn, or spending 10 hours a day in a cubical, or many of the other things that humans do. There's what Mother Nature designed us for, and then sometimes there's alternatives.
Again, I understand looking to diet if there are problems to fix. But what if there aren't any?
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Post by amyjo on Apr 24, 2005 15:14:03 GMT -5
Kona - Can I reccomend bumping the book up on your list? It rivals "Fast Food Nation" in terms of exposing the awful truths behind things we take for granted everyday.
I find it interesting that a vegetarian would question changing an un-natural diet just because it appears to be working at this point in time. Would you reccomend to a seemingly healty American on the typical fast food/processed food diet that no change is necessary just because they "seem" healthy at a particular point in time? Some how I really don't think so.
Whether you agree with me that a dog is a carnivore or you are steadfast that he is an omnivore - you still have to admit a steady diet of cooked/processed food isn't good for anyone. You wouldn't eat that way and you wouldn't feed a human child that way either. Fresh species appropriate foods are good for every being.
I have told you before - I am so happy for you that your dog has reached such an age happily and healthily - I know a lot of people that aren't so lucky - me included. I lost a dog at 8 which is WAY too young.
I don't blame kibble completley - I also blame poor breeding and over vaccination.
I have a 13 year old dog too - I know how it feels to be with a dog that age and know how lucky you are and how it feels to know that every day from here on out is a blessing. He was well too - till one day there was a huge tumor on his ear.
The tumor is why I switched to raw. But there were other changes too - stuff I thought was normal for all dogs like stinky breath and "doggie odor" went away.
Stuff I thought was related to aging went away too. He was more active than he had been in several years and he got off the doggie asprin for his hips.
I would propose that what you think isn't broken really is - but you won't be able to see it until you change it.
If you are interested in participating in a bulk purchase of the RMB book let me know. Our co-op orders a case every time we reach orders for 24 books. The book wholesales for $17.00 and would cost about 2 bucks to ship media mail. We aren't selling it, aren't making money off it - just making sure it gets out there because we think it is important.
Amy
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Post by Kona on Apr 25, 2005 0:59:47 GMT -5
Amy, I truly appreciate the offer and also your thoughts. I hope that you don't mind me replying. "I find it interesting that a vegetarian would question changing an un-natural diet just because it appears to be working at this point in time." I don't know the difference between something that is working and something that appears to be working. If it's working, it's working. "Would you recommend to a seemingly healthy American on the typical fast food/processed food diet that no change is necessary just because they 'seem' healthy at a particular point in time?" If it was my eighty-year-old grandmother, and every day someone told her that she didn't look a day over fifty, and she was healthier than others her age, and she had never been sick a day in her life, and she was asking me everyday to go outside and play with her when what I really wanted to do was sit on the couch and eat nachos . . . I seriously doubt that I would be sitting her down to talk about changes that I felt she needed to make in her diet. And I wouldn't say that the food that my dog gets is the equivalent of a human eating nothing but fast food. She eats a premium brand of Lamb & Rice kibble that is supplemented with Missing Link Plus. Does the typical fast food burger contain 23 superfoods that contribute omega-3 fatty acids, fibers, phytonutrients, and glucosamine sulfate? " . . . you still have to admit a steady diet of cooked/processed food isn't good for anyone." Actually, 15 years of experience with dogs tells me otherwise. It's one thing to speak of relative merits, and quite another to say that something "isn't good for anyone." "You wouldn't eat that way . . ." But . . . I do eat that way. I eat cooked and processed food almost every day of my life. "Fresh species appropriate foods are good for every being." True, of course. But I also know that there are many ways of doing things, and just because one thing is "good" doesn't mean that everything else is "bad." And I also know that there are dangers to feeding raw, just as I know that there are risks to vaccinating and risks when you choose to not vaccinate. Again, relative merits, not GOOD on one side and BAD on the other I haven't had a chance to read Lonsdale's book, but my understanding of it (and please correct me if I am mistaken) is that it basically exposes the relationship between the pet food industry and the veterinary health industry. OK, I understand that, just like I understand the relationship between the big pill manufacturers and my family doctor. But that doesn't mean that I stop going to the doctor or stop taking pills when I'm sick.
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Post by willow on Apr 25, 2005 6:53:47 GMT -5
But that doesn't mean that I stop going to the doctor or stop taking pills when I'm sick. Kona, While I agree that doctor's are a necessary evil, just as Vets are, perhaps if you ate a better, more natural diet and didn't take the drugs every time the Dr. prescribes them, (which suppresses the immune system and drives an illness inside), but went a more natural route and built up your immune system, you would live a longer healthier life. The same is true of our dogs. Drugs don't cure a thing. They just keep symptoms at bay, and eventually the disease will come back, or will surface as another disease. Right now you are young and *seemingly" healthy, but years of abusing our bodies/minds WILL catch up to us. While I do believe that our genetics play a large roll in how generally healthy we are, we see all the time where people who come from families with say, heart disease, have beaten the odds of their dying young as their parents/grandparents did, and living a better quality life, simply by taking better care of themselves.
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Post by Kona on Apr 25, 2005 13:37:19 GMT -5
Funny you should mention health and longevity. I have a grandfather who is healthy and strong, and his wife of many decades just passed away last week. I myself am a grandfather with two more grandchildren on the way. That means that there five generations of us, happy and healthy. Many of us are vegetarians, and most of us live very healthy lifestyles. My wife is 46, and she makes girls in their twenties envious. She stays healthy by exercising her body, and I stay healthy with my dietary choices. You really can't argue with success. Here's me and my mom a couple of months ago (remember, you're looking at a great-grandmother and a grandfather): Here's me and my dad, also from a couple of months ago: This is my youngest son, a life-time vegetarian: And finally my beautiful wife, who will be 46 this year: This, my friends, is a happy, healthy family.
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Post by amyjo on Apr 25, 2005 13:56:37 GMT -5
Kona - lovely family. BTW you just look like trouble. Now I understand why you like to argue so much
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Post by Kona on Apr 25, 2005 14:24:35 GMT -5
lol I know, it's kind of obvious once you see me.
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Post by willow on Apr 25, 2005 14:33:59 GMT -5
You also live in Ca., right? ;D
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Post by Kona on Apr 26, 2005 0:28:39 GMT -5
Nope. Why?
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Post by Kona on Apr 26, 2005 11:44:35 GMT -5
"Drugs don't cure a thing." - willow I'm still getting a chuckle out of that one.
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