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Post by diverp on Jan 27, 2006 15:50:13 GMT -5
I am new here, but I have an issue that I would like to fix. I have a 3 1/2 year old border collie/black lab mix named Murray that I got from the humane societ about 2 and a half years ago. I was living alone at the time. He was definitely quiet.
I then would bring people over for a pool or poker night and let Murray hang out and he was fine with that. He would play and possibly bark at some people, but nothing aggressive.
I would take him out for walks and he doesn't bark at people going by, just wags his tail and wants to play.
I got married about a year ago and my wife has a dominant little Welsh Corgi. He is a bossy little guy, but fun. He bosses Murray around and can get into snarling the teeth at him (which I don't like, but my wife doesn't seem to think it is a big deal). I just think it promotes aggression, but I could be wrong.
So, since we have all lived together, Murray has changed a little bit. He will bark at people who come in the house. He snarled at my wife's mother. My dad was here a while back and got along great with him, except for one time when Murray was sleeping and my dad got down to his face and Murray woke up and was startled and lunged at him, but didn't do anything else like bite.
If my dad tried to pick up his bone, Murray would growl. He doesn't do that with me or my wife.
My sister was in town this week, and tried to let Murray out and he lunged at her.
Now I am confused. He is fine with people out side of the house. However, in the house, he gets scared (trembles) and can lunge. He seems especially upset with certain women more than men.
Now, I have been doing some more walking and socializing with Murray lately. Training is working to some extent as he is definitely learning sit/stay, etc. However, we are going to have a baby in 8 months and my wife is scared about Murray and how he would be with a baby around. I keep thinking that if I can find a way to figure out what is bothering him with other people in "his" house, and why he may bare his teeth, then I can keep him around.
He is a really nice dog out of the house. Neighbors like to pet him and my friends like to play with him. My wife doesn't have very much patience with him though. I would imagine he was abused as a pup before I got him or something like that and it may have been by a woman. I don't know.
I am looking for any advice or avenues that I could try.
Thanks,
Paul
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Post by Aussienot on Jan 27, 2006 17:17:21 GMT -5
You don't mention ever having done any training with him. Can you describe a typical Murray day - where does he spend his time and how much attention and interaction does he get? Where does he sleep at night? Do you have any house rules about how he should act, such as no jumping up on people, stay off the furniture, no feeding at the table? Please come back with some more information and we can provide some specific advice. In the meantime, you should read about NILIF (Nothing in Life is Free) and start immediately with both dogs. Both dogs need more pack structure, and all of the people in the house need to change the way they relate to the dogs. dogden.proboards21.com/index.cgi?board=articles&action=display&thread=1079736429 And please let go of the abuse idea. You didn't mention any socialization for him with women, so that's more likely where the aggression comes from. Plus, when you adopted him he was about a year old, and some of the early socialization windows had closed. And even if he was,so what? It was more than 2 1/2 years ago. You can't change what happened in the past and using it as an excuse only clouds your thinking. Deal with what you can change, which is his current behavior. Please read about NILIF and post some more information about how you live with Murray so that we can provide some specific advice.
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Post by Nicole on Jan 27, 2006 21:23:45 GMT -5
It may also be helpful to tell us a bit more about how your wife interacts with the dog. My first impression is that this dog may be very stressed living with a mommy who has no patience for him and doesn't care that he he is being bullied and snarled at by his four legged sibling.
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Post by diverp on Jan 30, 2006 13:26:53 GMT -5
I read the NILF and I agree with that method. I have always done that with my dogs in the past. I don't believe in treating dogs like they are humans. They just aren't the same and the owner/leader needs to set the pace on when they are allowed to do certain things.
Okay, so here is Murray's story. I first got him from the Humane Society about 2 and a half years ago. He was timid and shy. He would chew at that age and I did some training with him (leaving items around for him to chew (toys)). I would also leaving items around I know he would chew and wait for him to get to them and then catch him in the act.
I would leave him in the house at night with me and he had his bed in my bedroom. During the day, I work of course, and I couldn't trust him in the house for fear of having no couch left when I get home. I would leave him in a dog run outside that was sheltered during the day.
Then, I enrolled him in a series of obedience classes. I literally had to carry him into the building to do the classes. He was afraid of the smells or something. When I got him in there, it was a hassle because he was more interrested in paying attention to the other dogs than he was to working on things in the class. The instructor's solution was essentially letting Murray get away with that and giving prase for not really doing the projects. I thought it was silly, but I went for the 6 or 7 classes. I decided to do more with him by myself when alone at home. I finally got him to sit, stay and some basics. He will do these things 98% of the time unless something irresistable is going on.
So, along comes my then girlfriend and now wife and her Welsh Corgi. Slider (her dog) is a dominant and bossy dog. The first thing that happened was that Murray chewed her new leather coat (the cuffs). Slider would be aggressive to Murray by bossing him and not sharing. And when Murray would paw at him, Slider would rip after him even though he is half his size. Now, I don't mind the play, but Slider would snarl and snap at Murray when Murray would just lick at Slider submissively.
My wife is a light sleeper, and Slider is like her little baby. So, she asked me to put Murray in the run at night. Otherwise, they would wrestle at night and keep her awake. So, Murray would be in the run at night and during the day and have about 4 or 5 hours with us at night. I didn't and don't like this.
So, the first thing of note is that I used to have people around the house when I was single (poker night, etc.). Murray would bark a bit, but was never aggressive, except for some wome would make him seem worried. However, he never really acted aggressively. Then, after we got married and Murray was outside more, My wife's mother came to visit. I held onto Murray and on the way by he growled at her mother. Her mom is not a dog person and was very timid with him and I think he wasn't sure what to do about that (made him unsure). So, Nicole was VERY worried about that. After that time, I have to keep Murray outside when people are over. My wife is afraid someone will get bit and has me being very cautious about these situations.
About 6 months ago, Murray showed signs of starting to mellow out. I did some more training with him. We take both dogs to the park on the weekends. One thing I want to do more of is getting him out among people more so that he is not freaked out by anyone. On walks, he never really barks, he just wags his tail and wants to sniff other dogs and people. People have petted him with no problem. He just has gotten that growling kind of thing going on in the house with certain people and situations going on.
So, my dad was here at Christmas. My dad gets along with him fine. But, one night, Murray was curled up and my dad stuck his face down in Murrays and Murray woke up startled and semi-lunged at him and made my dad back off. That scared me a bit. Then, my sister was in town and I asked her to not let Murray out when whe got to my house and I wasn't there. Well, Murray has never seen her before and when she let him out, he was fine, until in the house, and then he lunged at her and nipped at her arm (no dammage, but still...). So, My wife found out about this and is now thinking Murray is not savable. My wife is pregnant and is completely worried about Murray snapping at our child or somebody else.
Now, I would never allow anyone to get to the point of being in danger. However, this behaviour is not acceptable. We argued yesterday about it. My wife seems to think that if he does something like that, I need to "beat on him". I tend to correct with a choke chain in this situation and yell no and grab his snout.
I started implementing the NILF and I like that.
Now, in my opinion, Murray has been ousted from the house and needs well more time with other dogs, people. I have stood my ground and have let Murray stay in the house when we go out for a few hours during the day. He has been great. I want to do this for another week or two and then start letting him stay in the house while we are out at work. I also want to do more with taking him to the park with people around and while he is on a leash. That would be perfect for getting him more socialized. I think the combination of those two items would make him not as afraid when someone is in the house (he trembled at my sister while I was holding him this last time). He needs more active time in the house with Slider and he needs time among other people so he can see there is no threat. He seems to be more affraid of people in the house though.
So, as it stands, I am implementing these newer things. However, I get annoyed when Slider will act aggressively towards murray and I want to have him not do that as I think it teaches them that aggression is alright. My wife just snickers thinking it is cute. I think I got the point across yesterday that it is not alright and that she needs to be helping me with that aspect of things.
Also, we had the dogs in teh back of the 4runner this weekend. Slider would jump up on the window ledges in the back. Then Murray would follow him and do the same. Well, as soon as Murray does this, he put a scratch in the panel. I tried to explain, and I could be wrong, but if you allow one dog to do this, you can't blame the other one for doing the same thing. I mean, he is following the other dog that is apparently the alpha. Is that bad reasoning, or is it fair to let one dog do one thing and blame the other when he tries the same thing? It is the same at home. My wife like to let her dog on the couch. I have never liked doing this. So, Slider will egg Murray on, then chase around. Then, when he is tired, he will jump up on the couch and be protected by my wife. Well, Murray is worked up and wants to jump up as well, and I have to make him get off. Is it reasonable for rules to be applied to one dog and not another? Can dogs reason that way? I tend to think that they can't very well, but I could be wrong.
Anyways, I have kind of taken more of an active stance in the house and am doing some things with Murray that are obviously paying off (more commands and letting him get more used to being inside). My wife acts very skeptical about being able to do anything with Murray. I think she would be happy if I were to put him back in the Humane society. I am not wanting to do that. I belive that there is a way to figure out what is going on with Murray, help him get over what his issues are and get my wife on board.
I don't think I have left much out. Any initial advice?
Thanks for your time.
Paul
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Post by willow on Jan 30, 2006 16:22:43 GMT -5
Hi Paul,
I agree with you that dogs are dogs and should not be treated as humans, but I also don't think one dog should be treated one way, and the other dog another way.
I see many things going on here and I can understand Murray's confusion and insecurity.
First of all, if Murray is not reliable in the house, crate him when you can't watch him. If you want to put him in an outdoor kennel while you and your wife are at work, I see nothing wrong with that as long as Murray has shelter in cold weather, and access to water and shade in warm weather, but as long as Slider is allowed in the house, Murray should come in as soon as you get home. After all, he is...or should be, part of the family too!
Is there a reason both Slider and Murray aren't crated in the house at night? It's hardly fair to banish poor Murray outside at night while Slider, who is very spoiled btw, gets to stay inside!
In one sense, Slider and Murray are like your children and Slider is very obviously the favored "child". I feel very sad for Murray.
If you believe the humans should "set the pace" for the dogs, why aren't you and your wife "setting the pace" for Slider as well as Murray?
Also as Nicki said, Slider should not get away with growling, biting etc. Murray. That is when you and/or your wife, as Alpha's of the pack, step in and correct Slider. If he is allowed to continually attack Murray, Murray has a good chance of becoming aggressive with other dogs in return. Also, one of these days he may get fed up with Slider and really let him have it, and then it is my guess poor Murray is the one who will either be banished outside again or taken back to the shelter, because as Nicki also said, it is obvious your wife favors Slider and makes no bones (no pun intended) ;D about it.
Right now start implementing the NILIF program as Aussienot suggested for both dogs, not just Murray. As Aussienot said, they are both sorely lacking in pack structure.
Take control of both dogs. If you are not capable of doing that, than I think for Murray's sake, he should be re-homed with some one who will not let him be bullied by the other dog in the house hold, and treated as the lesser dog by your wife. Murray can definately sense that and feel insecure because of it.
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Post by diverp on Jan 30, 2006 17:15:30 GMT -5
Thanks for the response. When my wife first moved in, she was EXTREMELY protective of Slider. We had to slowly introduce the two dogs on leashes. I took a slow approach to getting the two dogs together. Originally, it was me trying to let Slider feel at home.
At first, I wanted to keep things fair and not let either dog on the couch. My wife refused and said she has never had a problem with dogs on the couch.
Yesterday I was asking my wife if she honestly thought that telling one dog to do something and not making the other do the same was fair. She sees nothing wrong with telling Murray to do something and then letting slider get away with that behaviour because (...file in the blank).
My wife has a friend who is a border collie trainer (Murray is half) and this friend tells her that border collies are not a good house dog for families. She often will bring that up for Murray as if that is enough reason to give up on him.
It is very frustrating. I have to kind of stick up for Murray and get him integrated again. Slider is pampered and my wife makes plenty of excuses for him. I have brought up the fact that Murray has never really been aggressive until Slider came to the house. My wife thinks that is silly that his aggressive behaviour is caused by Slider being aggressive towards him (and I admit, it is not totally that, but that in combination with some other things).
I think I can force this a little bit and get Murray to the point of being in the house more and get him amongst people more. I think that will help considerably.
I just start to second guess myself when my wife is so adament about some of this bad behaviour being alright for slider and not Murray. I don't think it should matter what the dogs' sizes are, they don't know what their size means.
Like yesterday. When the dogs were in the 4runner going to the park. Slider will jump up on the door panel inside the vehicle. Murray will do the same and then make a mark. Well, my wife then jumps on Murray for doing that (and me in return). I then bring up that they are dogs being dogs and that just telling him to stop doing that means nothing to him. She seems to think that telling him to get down (withough him knowing what that means in the car) should still get him to respond. I mean, Murray doesn't know what she means because he hasn't been trained what down from the window means. You can't get mad at a dog for doing that. And, Slider does it all the time when Murray is there. My wife seems to think it is alright because Slider is shorter (corgi) and can't see out the window. There is an obvious bias for her towards her dog. I need to stick up for Murray more than I have.
The thing that gets frustrating, again like I pointed out, is that barking about a dogs bad behavior does not help solve anything. Instead of being negative, come up with a solution.
My wife wont come out and say it , but I am pretty sure that she is going to want Murray out when we have our baby. I have said taht we have plentyof time to try and help Murray out. I cannot and will not just put that dog into the pound again. I take it as a responsiblity when I brought him into the house.
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Post by willow on Jan 30, 2006 20:56:18 GMT -5
In plain English, your problem is not the dogs. Your problem is your wife. I currently have an Australian Shepherd and a Border Collie. Previous to this BC I had a Border Collie/Australian Shepherd cross. All these dogs are/were wonderful with children and adults alike! Yes, it's true BC enthusiasts usually try to dissuade people with small children from getting Border Collies, but my feeling with any breed of dog is that you teach mutual respect between the children and dog. You do not allow the dog to herd/nip the children and you do not allow the children to abuse the dog by pulling on them, poking at their eyes, trying to straddle/ride them, or by hitting them with any object. If you want your dog to be good with children, they have to not have been abused by children! If you allow your children to be rough with your dog, you are teaching the dog to be afraid of children and teaching your child that it is o.k. to be rough with/abuse animals. That said, I see no reason why Murray would not be good with your child, as long as you do your job of making sure, as I said, they respect each other. Slider, being a Corgi, which is also a herding breed, and being spoiled and allowed to run the household to boot, your chances of having him resent the future child are just as great or greater than for Murray, because right now, as you said, Slider is your wife's "baby" and he is likely to really resent the human baby taking her "away" from him. Just because Slider is smaller than Murray does not entitle him to special privileges and it does not mean he can not administer just as serious a bite. I really do not see a bright future for either dog unless you can convince your wife that what she is doing is wrong.
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Post by diverp on Jan 31, 2006 17:39:53 GMT -5
My wife tends to overreact with some thing. She has a sister whose family had a border collie. I guess somehow the dog bit a neighbor kid when her kids were out playing. I guess the child required plastic surgery and the like.
She also has the friend who is a border collie breeder. Again, this friend told her that she would not have border collies as a family dog.
Now, in my opinion, my wife is easily suggestable around friends. If they tell her something, she really does take it literally. I have explained to her that the dog of her sisters who bit is not Murray. Totally different situation and circumstances. You can't blame Murray for other people's opinions or what he "might" do. Thats just bad reasoning.
Yesterday, I was explaining to her that I think Slider is pampered and favored over Murray. She actually took offense to that. I tried explaining to her that when one dog is left in the house with privaledges and one is not (Murray), that Murray is going to feel left out of the pack. I have proven to her that we can leave him indoors when we are out for a few hours. No problem.
Its kind of odd though. She can say that I am being silly thinking that Murray can have feelings of being left out of the family or pack, but then turns around and puts all of these human traits and qualities to Slider. Its like I tell her. They are dogs, not humans. All they want is to be with their pack/family and feel of use. Secluding a dog is only going to distance him.
I am holding my ground with this so far. Its just hard to reason with my wife on this when she thinks she is being completely logical about it, yet anyone I ask or that I know and has seen her with the dogs, agrees that she favors Slider.
We will see.
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Post by Nicole on Feb 1, 2006 8:40:41 GMT -5
Hi Diverp. It sounds like you really love your dog and are committed to making this work. Now I don't want to meddle in your marriage but....of course I am going to. ;D I am only recently married as well. I find that when my husband is being thick about something that it is very helpful in changing his mind to actually allow him to experience my point of view. For example. He will speak to the dog in sentences and paragraphs when the dog only understand commands. He will say leave me alone go play with your toy and the dog is somehow supposed to understand that. A down stay command would have the desired effect. I tell him this and he INSISTS that the dog understands him. So I catch him off guard and speak to him in a made up foreign language. I then hit him in the head because he didn't immediately comply with what I said...my husband not the dog. Finally it sinks in. So, what you could try is to spend one day favoring Murphy over Slider. Don't tell your wife but do it in front of her. Put her dog outside. Tell it to shoo and pet Murphy. etc. Everything that she does to Murphy you do to Slider. Make it obvious. Let her actually feel how hurtful this is and how unfair it is. Then tell her that it hurts YOU deeply when she does this to Murphy. I really think that with some group effort in your home that you can train Murphy and Slider. But Murphy also needs to feel safe and secure and that he has a place in your pack. he needs to know that he isn't left on his own to defend himself against attacks by Slider. That is your job as Alpha. He needs to know that he is going to be treated fairly and also disciplined fairly. That there are rules that will be enforced consistently and fairly. That means that he cannot be allowed to do something one minute and scolded the next time he does it That type of environment can really cause problems for a dog. They like black and white. No grays are allowed. Teach him to not do the things that are annoying. To go lay down and stay so that your wife has a break when she needs to be alone with the baby. Teach him everything that will make life pleasant for the whole family when the baby arrives. And do the exact same for Slider. Loey is so completely right about who is more likely going to present the problem. Slider is the one that is attached to your wife and she should slowly start distancing herself from the dog NOW. Get slider used to being alone and not getting her attention when he wants it. Don't wait until the baby comes. Good luck and please feel free to ask any questions that you have. We are here to help you.
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Post by Richard on Feb 1, 2006 9:15:55 GMT -5
Hi there.
I've been reading this thread and I just gotta say, your situation is probably gonna get a bit worse before it gets better. I like your attitude towards stuff but lets face it, you know what you need to do, we know what you need to do but it's your wife that you need to convince of what to do.
Nicki's suggestion of turning the tables is a very good one. You might get in a lot of crap from your wife when you do it but she needs to see how she is acting between you, Murray and Slider. Sometimes it just takes a feather touch to convince people other times it takes a good thump over the head...I think you're doing the latter here but it seems rationializing with your wife isn't getting very far.
You've got the best intentions for your dogs and are trying to establish a "pack" mentality in your home. You're also trying to get a marriage off the ground at the same time (I'm assuming you both lived apart before you came together under one roof) which can have its fills of ups and downs.
Working these two situations simultaniously will be like walking on a slippery sloap. Take your time, stand your ground and don't make any of what happens personal. You're trying to get her to understand that dogs who are treated like Slider is are no better than spoiled little kids and while she is going to fight back and say you're wrong, you will need to be patient and stay the course.
What you're doing is right..you just need to educate your wife that if EVERYONE is to co-exist in your house, a strong pack order must be set up and definitely, rules and privaliges need to be set up too....that means equal treatment for everyone even when you're not there.
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Post by willow on Feb 1, 2006 9:56:35 GMT -5
Nicki, that suggestion of "turning the tables" on slider is an excellent idea! It reminds me of when our boys were small. One of my husbands brothers favored the younger boy and would play with him all the time etc., and when the older boy would go and try to join in the fun, the uncle would tell him to go away etc. That really hurt me as well as it did the older boy! This same BIL would bring his obnoxious dog to our house all the time and tease his dog with, and then throw sticks for him etc. Now, my dog, a Lab, would get excited of course, and want to go get the stick too, but the BIL would tell him to get away etc., just as he did with our boys. My husband would tell his brother all the time not to do this, because both dogs would compete, of course, and get so excited, but he wouldn't listen and would keep it up just to annoy us, I'm sure! I asked my husband if I should bring our dog inside when he was playing with his dog outside, and my husband said "no", because this is our house and why should our dog have to be brought inside, esp. when he was asked repeatedly to please not do this. One day when the BIL was doing this and was teasing his dog by waving the stick around, pretending he was throwing it and wouldn't etc., my dog got so excited he jumped up for the stick and accidentally got my BIL's arm. He didn't put a mark on the BIL, but he did tear his new shirt and was he angry!!! He wanted us to pay for his shirt! My husband and I just laughed and told him he got what he asked for. He never did that again....which goes to prove that experience is the best teacher. ;D
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