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Post by Summer Magic on Jan 14, 2006 10:06:47 GMT -5
Here is my situation. Magic was adopted by me at the age of six months. She had no socialization (born in a mill and sold in a pet store) She was bounced around to five homes before she came to me. I allowed her one month for adjustment to her new surroundings and potty training. Then I started her in basic obedience. She responded beautifully to training and is currently on the NILIF philosophy with both my mother and myself.
However she is afraid of everything, I've tried to socialize her by taking her out as much as possible and having her experience the big bad world at her own pace and she's a little angel when she's away from home.
When she was nine months old she slipped behind my chair and started chewing on a lamp cord. She chewed completely to the copper wiring and was electocuted for a few seconds, luckily I was there and ripped the cord out of the wall socket before she sustained a great deal of damage. However she did get burned on the inside of her mouth and on her tongue. We took her to the vet but he couldn't do anything for us and said the burns would heal on their own, and they did.
Since that time she has been exhibiting fear aggression in the home to the door bell, people coming to the house and redirected aggression to the telephone. She has bitten both myself and my mother and drawn blood. I prefer to use positive reinforcement training and a little positive punishment (squirt water bottle)with her because she is so sensitive. She has a safe spot to go to in the house (her crate) and I do order her there whenever anyone comes to the door. This fear behavior is also exhibited when we are in our yard and someone stops to talk to me. She will sit quietly by my side while we are talking and as soon as my guest turns to walk away she lunges and snaps at their butt area. She does respond to the word "stop" and I do make her sit by me for a few seconds before I praise her for her compliance.
We have tried flooding her with treats, sending her to her safe spot and keeping her on a drag leash in the home (she is always on leash outside) The treats only hold her interest for seconds and she will snatch one from me and go off barking and usually chokes on what is in her mouth. The safe spot seems to be the only recourse I have at this time because I can close the door of her crate and no one is in danger of being bitten. If anyone has any other suggestions I would be very appreciative.
On a side note, she loves kids, they are her play buddies and other dogs are fantastic fun to play with too, but if you are an adult and near my mama, you're dead meat.........
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Post by Brooke on Jan 14, 2006 11:08:50 GMT -5
5 homes by the age of 6 months. That is not a good start. Do you know anything about why she was bounced around so much? How old is she now? I'd like to know a little more about the environments she was in before you if you know at all.
Do you feel this is learned behavior or a pre-disposition?
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Post by Summer Magic on Jan 14, 2006 11:42:11 GMT -5
Magic will be three on January 25 (our best guess) The only information came to me from her foster mom who is a very good friend of mine and she raises shelties. Magic was born in a puppy mill and sold to a pet store in Howell, Michigan. She was purchased by a young woman with an 18 month old child. The woman decided a pup and a child was too much trouble so she gave the pup to her mother. The mother didn't want the pup but kept her for three weeks trying to rehome her. This woman had large dogs (don't know what kind) so the pup was placed in a home with an established pack. The woman had a vacation scheduled and boarded her own dogs but didn't want the expense of boarding the pup so she talked a friend into keeping the pup for the time that she would be gone. This other woman raised boxers and didn't want the pup either. Again Magic was placed in a home with an established pack. I do know that there was one dog (don't know which home) that would come in the sliding door and sit and wait for Magic to come in and would attack her every time she stepped through the door. She is very afraid to go through sliding doors. When the first woman came home from her vacation she refused to take the pup back and Magic ended up in the pound. The sheltie rescue organization received a call from the pound about a pure bred sheltie there and she was collected and put into the rescue organization (lucky girl). Then on to a foster home after a complete physical. Where I adopted her. Her behavior could be learned because she does comply with the stop command when I give it, however I know from her body language (yawning, shivering, and whining with her tail tucked that she is also afraid)
We do live in two homes through out the year. I am retired and spend my summers at my home in Michigan (where there is little socialization for Magic because it's a resort area, mostly weekenders for neighbors) and the winter months I live in a mobile home park in Florida. The Florida home is where the light cord incident happened and there are many more people around than there are in Michigan.
Magic was six months when I took her home to the Michigan home, and nine months when she was introduced to my Florida home.
I hope this helps you if not, ask more questions
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Post by willow on Jan 14, 2006 11:52:01 GMT -5
Hi Summer,
Welcome! ;D
The first thing you have to do to correct your dogs behavior is to realize that it really doesn't matter what happened to the dog in it's past life. Now is what is important, and she is safe and well cared for by you, so you have to quit feeling sorry for everything that happened to her in her past life or with you and stop this behavior immediately. Giving her a "time out" absolutely will not work with a dog. They do not understand "time outs", but they do understand a well timed correction, which means immediately when they display a behavior that is not acceptable.
Giving treats as a distraction does not work either, as you have already found out.
What you have to do is keep a leash on her and anytime she acts aggressively towards you or anyone else, immediately correct her. I like what Caeser Milan uses and it really does work the best of anything I have seen/tried. Say, "Ssssssssssssssssst"....not "stop" or "No" or anything else, and at the same time give her a leash correction. Have a leash on her when you are talking to someone and when she tries to lunge and bite them when they turn to leave, correct her as said above.
It is also important with any dog, even fearful ones, that you take the position of Alpha or pack leader by not acting unsure of yourself with her, but stand tall and confident with shoulder's back and head up, and your movements/commands should be said and done with confidence. Never plead with her or give a command in the form of a question..."Please stop?"
Try this with her and let us know how it works. ;D
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Post by Summer Magic on Jan 14, 2006 12:14:28 GMT -5
wow, thanks. I guess I've been listening to the +R people for too long. They tell me that it will increase her aggression or damage her emotionally. I would have done this months ago if I thought it would do the trick. I've always asserted myself as alpha in my home because it's easier to get a response from a well spoken SIT! rather than an aw honey don't do that........... But most dog forums frown on these correction actions and I'd be crucified if I even mention that I've given a leash pop and a stern correction. I'll give it a go and see if she responds positively to it. Thanks bunches I always thought I was right but well, experts are experts and they are supposed to know things like this........
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Post by Nicole on Jan 14, 2006 12:18:08 GMT -5
Loey I completely agree. I typed my response while you were posting and it is nearly the same. ;D
These were my thoughts.
It sounds to me as if you have a fear biter AND some serious pack issues going on at the same time. The dog thinks it is his job to protect you and especially mamma as you say.
What is the purpose of treat flooding? Is that supposed to distract the dog? When do you give the treats? If you are giving them while the dog is reacting it is rewarding the dog for reacting. The only time I would even consider giving a treat in this circumstance is if the dog stays completely calm.
That the dog reacts like an angel away from property leads me to believe that there is more than fear going on here...territoriality and pack issues.
I would up the NILIF. I would ignore the dog if he acts fearful. I would also correct the dog for even thinking about an aggressive response. I would also introduce the trigger stimuli very slowly and reward only for calmness.
The dog will be more confident if he knows that you and your mom will protect him and that he doesn’t have to protect you. NILIF, rules, structure, consistency and fair discipline will do wonders to increase the dogs confidence.
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Post by Summer Magic on Jan 14, 2006 12:57:28 GMT -5
That's what I though in the beginning, that she has to look to me for everything including her safety. The treat flooding is to be after she has complied with a sit stay or down stay and she is quiet, then we tag team her, one of us answers the door and the other shovels the treats in and as I have said she usually snatches a piece and goes brerserk and chokes on it, so we've lost the battle and she wins. I just used the ssssssst on her when we went outside for a moment, she went bonkers when I put her in her crate and I used it she stopped dead and looked at me. I gave her a stern LAY DOWN, and wonder of wonders, she complied and didn't make a peep even after I came in the house...... I always wait at least a minute or two before I allow her out of her crate when I come in the house so she doesn't think she's got to be out immediately (because sometimes I go right back out again)
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Post by willow on Jan 14, 2006 16:24:03 GMT -5
First, a question....Do you prefer I call you Summer or Magic? ;D
Secondly, we all know what you mean about most dog forums. I have had my share of criticism on a lot of them for even mentioning a training collar or a correction of any kind. I rarely go to any other forum now, because to me it is just a waste of my time and too upsetting, because they don't have a clue on how to train a dog for the "real world".
I don't want to speak for Brooke, but I believe the reason she started this forum is because this is where you will get real down to earth advise that works. ;D
All you have to do is look around you at most of the dogs in your area that are trained w/out corrections or in these PP (purely positive) classes and ask yourself..."Are these dogs well trained/behaved?" For the majority of them, the answer will be "No". I will also venture to say that when you see a well trained dog, the chances are it will be wearing a training collar and it has been trained the "conventional way", with corrections and praise. BTW...a correction does not always have to be a physical correction. Sometimes all a correction is to my dogs is a look or a look and pointing a finger at them, and that is because when a dog clearly knows what is expected of them, because of clear cut rules, and knows that you are the Alpha, that is all they need.
I also agree with Nicki that I think your dog also has territorial and pack issues, and that by putting into practice what she said, "rules, NILIF, structure, consistency and fair dicipline you can turn her around.
Of course, this does not mean you cannot show love to your dog....just do it at the right time. Not when she demands it or when she will interpret it as meaning she is the Alpha. She should only be shown love when she is calm, quiet and behaving. You can then call her over to you and lavish her with love. ;D
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Post by willow on Jan 14, 2006 16:50:51 GMT -5
I see in another post that you allow Magic to sleep with you.
I highly recommend that you do not allow this as long as she is not showing respect to you and your mother and is acting aggressively towards other's.
When you allow a dog to get up on furniture or beds, that to them, puts them on your level and they regard the furniture/beds/you as belonging to them, not the other way around. Eventually, they will begin to show aggression to anyone who gets near "their property". That could be another reason she is trying to nip people. She feels they are getting too close to you....her "property".
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Post by Brooke on Jan 14, 2006 17:07:42 GMT -5
I don't want to speak for Brooke, but I believe the reason she started this forum is because this is where you will get real down to earth advise that works. ;D Yep! ;D That is correct. I met many of these people going on what? 3 years now... in another forum. And I stole'em!! ;D The fact of the matter is all dogs are different. When one method isn't working, rather than beat a dead horse you have to try other options. It's hard to find good trainers that understand that. All dogs require different types of training just as children require different levels and styles of being taught. Some understand just by listening and others are more visual, some more logical, some are quicker than others... some need more help and guidance. Some need less and others need a more strict structured environment ect. ect... They have their own abilities and personalities. There is no one way for every dog out there. I was in your spot long ago with my dobie Peeka. When we got her she had some aggression problems as a puppy. I went to a positive trainer thinking... she's a professional. She knows what she's talking about. The look in her eyes when she saw her at her worst was very disheartening and a lack of confidence that we could fix the problem. I went to a positive training forum and everything they told me to do and not to do only made the situation worse. And then they told me that because the positive methods weren't working I had to put my puppy (who was not even 6 months old yet) down. They said she had loose wiring and that would be the most logical, humane thing to do for her. (Rather than change the method.) Just kill her was the "right" option. Luckily one of their newer members there found me right at that point and recruited me to a dog forum more along the lines like this one. She made some MAJOR turn arounds within the first 2 weeks. Now there are zero problems with her. Eventually we got sick of the way the administraitor there ran his site and his "my way or highway" beliefs but we stuck together. I put this place together and here we've been for I think two years now. The moral of the story is... exhaust your options before you make any final decisions. If one thing doesn't work, try another. Unless that would endanger the people in your environment. Realize that just because someone says they are a professional... doesn't mean they know what they are talking about.
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Post by Summer Magic on Jan 14, 2006 19:11:16 GMT -5
LOL you can call me Summer, Magic or Judy I don't care as long as we communicate our thoughts to each other.
I am so happy I found this site. Brooke, those have been my philosophies for as long as I can remember, it's just like with children (I have seven) no one child is the same as another and one dicipline method doesn't necessarily work on another. It's the same with dogs. My first four dogs had the dicipline of the stern do as I say and no punishment will come to you and tho I love you I don't like how you are acting. Until I met up with all these forums that said no no no that's old school you're harming your dog..... Well I don't like being bitten and no one else should be subjected to an unruly dog either. Thanks so much I feel vindicated in my thoughts.
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Post by Brooke on Jan 14, 2006 23:52:42 GMT -5
My first four dogs had the dicipline of the stern do as I say and no punishment will come to you and tho I love you I don't like how you are acting. Until I met up with all these forums that said no no no that's old school you're harming your dog..... Well I don't like being bitten and no one else should be subjected to an unruly dog either. Thanks so much I feel vindicated in my thoughts. The proof is in the pudding. It is not abuse. You are not causing harm. There are differences. There are degrees to corrections and you can defiantely cross the line but I think that people who would are willing to push it that far to that degree would not be looking for help on a message board. Most people having these problems have them because they are way too soft with their dogs. I think that it's necessary with many dogs to lay this type of foundation. In all my life, even as I grew up, I've never had a dog that wasn't happy and they were all raised with corrections on some level. If it didn't work, that would be one thing... but it works and I've still had happy, well trained dogs. I don't see where the problem is. All the sudden people have started the postitive training trend for their "soft" dogs and it's the be all end all. It's not. Every day dogs that are capable of living a healthy normal life are put down because of that theory. I'm not saying by any means that all dogs can be trained but it's just sad that if one method doesn't fit the dog then the best answer I regularly see out of them that they have to offer is to end the dogs life. Walking outside the positive realm is out of the question to them. Putting a pinch on my dog was the best thing I ever did for her. She's ten bazillion times happier in life and more confident in her role as well. She was trained in a way that she understood because she just needed to understand it in dog terms. A way that was a natural curve for her to learn. A pinch collar is no different than a dog who corrects another by biting or nipping on the neck. Anyway... end of ramble... ;D
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Post by Brooke on Jan 14, 2006 23:53:58 GMT -5
it's just like with children (I have seven) ...hooba what?
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Post by Summer Magic on Jan 15, 2006 6:29:34 GMT -5
LOL I don't know why the fact surprizes everybody but it does. I didn't have seven children, I married a wonderful man that had five and I had two from a previous marriage. We all coexisted for 20 wonderful years until one day when my husband lost his life behind the wheel of a car....... Now the kids are all mine and I love every one of them.
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Post by sibemom on Jan 15, 2006 9:10:25 GMT -5
Yes this forum is a unique group of individuals who truley want to assit owners in getting their dogs to be welcomed members of their family Everything that was said in the above posts would NEVER be seen on some of the other boards because people just do not understand that DOGS ARE DOGS and must be treated accordingly. The other thing to is that we have all become good friends and talk about other life issues which alot of times has alot to do with our training process. Emotions are a big factor when you deal with your dog, because they feed off of everything we feel. When they say dogs resemble their owners that is very true because Timid owners usually have timid dogs etc... so being able to converse with each other about everyday life occurences is a good way to vent it out and get back to the issues at hand MAKING OUR DOGS A JOY TO LIVE WITH. I too fell into that trap, after being away from training for a few years, all the NEW METHODS that I was reading about REALLY CONFUSED ME , but if it was not for that falling out so to speak I would have never found this great group. Your dog is going to be fine and yes fearful dogs are a bit harder to deal with, but as long as you take the stand to be the ALPHA keep your dog in check, and treat her LIKE A DOG, things will be fine. HECK you have 7 kids ;D You know how to do it
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