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Post by sibemom on Nov 10, 2005 4:44:54 GMT -5
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Post by rogerb on Nov 10, 2005 12:53:49 GMT -5
This trainer has 36yrs experience(he says!) and is a follower of Jan Fennell's methods. see www.janfennellthedoglistener.com/He certainly appears able to handle dogs, but has opted-out when I have 'invited' him to demonstrate heel walking with Dolly when she is in 'Max Pull' mode. He disapproves of pinch collars which my wife HAS to use in order to control D and even I can hardly hold her on a half-check when she is trying to get at the dogs she doesn't like. The good news is that the trainer may be leaving Spain at the end of the year & going to S Africa, so we are hoping for a refund and a new start. I really don't think we are making much progress at present.
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Post by Richard on Nov 10, 2005 15:47:29 GMT -5
Hi Roger,
I can identify with what you're going through with Dolly.
When Rocky was about the same age (actually about a year), we had attitude problems with him and his hobby was to bark and try to intimidate anyone (human/dog) around him. A lot of what you've described with your dog is what Rocky was doing.
We switched over to a prong collar and found a trainer who knew how to train me and show me the proper way to use it. Rocky, well, he had a major life altering adjustment one cold January day in a park near us. Five minutes with Dave and Rocky couldn't wait to get back to me. He set up two dogs in the middle of this field and took Rocky around them in a circle. Each time Rocky went to aggress towards one of the dogs, he got a correction from Dave...I think it shocked him (I was being easy on the corrections with the prong up to this point) cuz he yiped and looked back at Dave. Around again they went and he tried it again and "pop" Dave corrected again and Rocky yiped again out of shock. By the third time, Rocky started to aggress and throught, "oh, that guy is gonna pop me again...maybe this isn't such a good idea". After the 5 minutes of this, he walked Rocky around and with "leave it" command, Rocky didn't even look at the two dogs anymore, nor any of the others around. I took the leash and he got one bark out (thinking, I'm gonna be a softy) but no, I "popped' and corrected and he looked at me like, "...whoa, what was that?". We continued working that way in a group setting until the point I had Rocky walking off leash in a heel around a room full of dogs as close as a foot away...with Rocky not even blinking at them.
That is a long story but it was the beginning of a whole new way of looking at how I was training (or needing to improve) based on Rocky's attitude.
What I had to learn, as you are learning now, was to be the alpha. I know it's a term we beat to death around here but it's truly the cornerstone of NILIF training. I know it's tough paying good money then not seeing the results you expected.
We've also talked at one time or another about what type of training method works with what type of dog. I'd never think of using a prong on a Goldie...they're so docile and laid back, the corrections would send it into shock. Similiarly, I'd think twice about using a GL on a BDS or GSD...that is definitely not the best type of collar for those breeds of dogs that are headstrong. Thus, we come back to matching the type of training and training tools to the breed of dog instead of trying to shoehorn the dogs attitude/breed into a training method that won't get the results you are looking for. I had to work hard to get Rocky to realize that he wasn't in charge and to let me be the leader. Somedays, it wasn't pretty but we got through it.
I guess we've been up and down here about what is the root of the problem with Dolly's behaviour but from what you're saying, Dolly isn't responding to the current training format you and her are in.
Having said that, I do not think the situation is hopeless and in fact, I know it can be turned around to where she'll understand her place in your pack.
I also think you've got the tools and the knowledge to make that happen.
edited for grammar
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Post by Nicole on Nov 10, 2005 16:47:22 GMT -5
He certainly appears able to handle dogs, but has opted-out when I have 'invited' him to demonstrate heel walking with Dolly when she is in 'Max Pull' mode. Well that isn’t a good sign. I assume by opted-out that you are saying that he has declined your invitation to train your dog not to pull although that is what you paid for. I agree with both Richard and Ann about matching training methods to the dog and definitely to not engage in the free for all. I would never put my dog in that situation...certainly not as an adult...and not if he were a teenager. Nothing good can come of it. It is extremely stressful for most any dog. I don’t see any problem with a dog playing with a known friend but never to be thrown loose with a group of strange dogs. I went through a similar thing as Richard with some dog aggression...with other males (my dog is male) and I handled it with both obedience and desensitization, working OB at distances and then closer and closer. But, the end result is not that my dog loves other males only that he will ignore them and listen to my commands. I don’t know what your goal is but your dog may not be a dog that can ever play nicely with every other dog. My dog has select girlfriends and he likes many males that are his friend but there are some that he simply will not tolerate and I would be foolish to think that I could ever let him in a free for all. Never. Does that make sense. As for the people barking, as Richard said, teenagers go through this. Actually I got Sunny as an untrained adult and he did this too. The second I said hello...bark, bark, bark. I do think it was a leadership issue and it is extremely annoying. I solved this quickly by using strict NILIF, as we continue to do today, and also he was corrected quite firmly for this behavior. What also helped is that I would use obedience (give a sit command etc) which was distracting enough to shut him up. If not, he was corrected. I had to let him know that I decide who I talk to, not him and also that barking at any person while we are walking is simply never an option. I think you need to find a different trainer..one that understands that one size does not fit all.
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Post by Aussienot on Nov 12, 2005 2:42:47 GMT -5
The problem with 'Free for All" is that normal dogs are treated rudely by other unsocialised dogs and become fearful, perhaps fear agressive. The unsocialised normal dogs who acted rudely notice this, and feed off the feeling of superiority and become dominant aggressive. And genuinely aggressive dogs learns that it works.
Free range play does not socialise, it marginalizes. So run away from any club that thinks it's a good idea.
Even in puppy class at 10 weeks of age, sweet gentle Sailor became a 'bully' puppy. Not because she was bad; just because she was big and clumbsy and clueless. So I stopped free play pronto.
You want to Neutralise your dog to the presence of other dogs, not to teach them that other dogs are either playthings or predators depending on where they rank in the pack.
There is no 'one way' to train all dogs. Anyone that cannot adapt their training method to your dog is not really a trainer that will help you in any meaningful way. So if your trainer does not accept your view, then find another trainer.
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Post by rogerb on Nov 12, 2005 3:03:08 GMT -5
Well, I shall soon, as he told us last night he IS going to S Africa next month I had a long chat with him last night but didn't feel I'd made much progress; he even suggested we may have to re-home Dolly because Malinoisx are often just too strong(willed) for elderly folk like us I think we may try the DIY route for a while, having picked-up a good bit of the 'theory' from you helpful folk, among others I'll probably be back quite often for advice
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Post by Aussienot on Nov 12, 2005 3:19:10 GMT -5
Hey, I was told by a trainer once that Finn was Not Trainable and should be put down. There was plenty of evidence to support that view. Stupid me went and figured out how to train him anyway. It's not the easy ones that teach you how to train a dog, it's the resistant ones that really teach you. You'll have plenty of support here.
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Post by rogerb on Nov 13, 2005 17:31:49 GMT -5
Thanks for the kind words. 'Easy' I could live with right now...
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Post by willow on Nov 14, 2005 8:12:58 GMT -5
'Easy' I could live with right now... I can relate to that, Roger! I am a "senior citizen" and I have paid my dues for the past 40+ years, so now I want "easy" too! ;D
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Post by rogerb on Nov 16, 2005 15:37:53 GMT -5
Yes I didn't really know what we were getting into by 'rescuing' a Malenois x We are both SCs too!
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Post by rogerb on Nov 21, 2005 15:22:42 GMT -5
Or latest training session included my wife, a spectator, being harangued (just out of my earshot!) for both 'pampering' Dolly, thereby making her dominant and ALSO for 'torturing' her with a prong collar, which has resulted in her being 'untrainable' The man is a complete loony, if such a non-PC term is allowed !! We have concluded that he is trying to make us so p155ed-off thatwe'll leave BEFORE he goes to S Africa(next month), thereby giving him an excuse not to refund what he'll owe us for paid-for training (about $220) !! But we are made of sterner stuff! I won't reveal our strategy, in case, by some remote chance he reads this
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Post by rogerb on Dec 2, 2005 15:47:52 GMT -5
Well, our trainer told us this evening this is the last training session as he's off to S Africa NEXT WEEK When I asked him about the money he owes us for training until June, he just shrugged and said "Send me a lawyer", knowing that it's not worth my while for the amount involved, but I did tell him he's a thief and managed to get some of my money back in the form of 2 large bags of dogfood! So we say "Good Riddance, he wasn't much of a trainer anyway!". AND I'm making sure that I post his name on some S African websites, if I can get hold of them. (I gather he's thinking of doing Bed & Breakfast, or Real Estate over there.) Not a happy story I'm afraid, but it could've been worse - I rather wish I were the sort of person who'd 'Send the Boys Around' !
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Post by hunterr1950 on Dec 3, 2005 2:00:17 GMT -5
Sorry, I’m new to this site but happened to be reading about your Belgian Malinois. I couldn’t bring your baby’s picture up to actually “see”, but what does her feet look like? Do they look like tiny “deer” feet or bulky? I’m owned by a Mal & YES they are v-e-r-y intense, stubborn, bull headed, and protective with the extra speed!
You say she is 15 months, did you get her as a puppy or just recently? I adopted Hunterr (my Belgian Mal) when he was close to 18 months.
When I first got him – he got along great with my English Mastiff (Angel Love) but only after some other problems did I try to find a trainer for obedience. I found that Hunterr was extremely dog & people aggressive. I won’t go into my problems right now because there are too many.
But if I were you – I would definitely stop the “Free Time” for the present. I am not an expert in any way as far as aggression (that’s why I joined this wonderful site – to learn!). But I have dealt with Hunterr & know how fast he can be in “attacking other dogs or biting people” with no warning!
Linda, Hunterr (Belgian Malinois) & Annie (Neo Mastiff)
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Post by sibemom on Dec 3, 2005 9:04:11 GMT -5
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Post by rogerb on Dec 5, 2005 15:09:41 GMT -5
Thanks, ladies & gent, for all of that Lots of good stuff there. Linda, my original pic of Dolly has been deleted, so here's another, for you, showing her feet (smaller than a GSD, I'd say, but claws like a grizzly!!) : img.photobucket.com/albums/v693/rogerb40uk/Dolly11.jpgWe got her from a rescue centre, aged 8 weeks, and she is now 17 months. She is definitely improving and has a very sweet nature
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