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Post by willow on Jun 28, 2005 8:17:58 GMT -5
The other day the Aussie Rescue took in a very dog/dog aggressive male Aussie. He is not aggressive towards people, but when he sees another dog, he fixates on it and then attacks. For this reason, he has to wear a muzzle whenever he is around other dogs.
Sheri is having the dog evaluated to see if it can be helped, but I have at least a couple concerns about this dog and how he has been handled so far, and would like some feedback on this. Not necessarily to pass on to Sheri....just for myself.
Sheri brought the dog to her house and said her dogs are absolutely terrified of this dog, because even though he was wearing a muzzle, he attacked one of her dogs, pinned it and was trying to get at its throat.
My thinking is that this cannot be good for Sheri's dogs, because even though the aggressive dog is wearing a muzzle and cannot physically harm them, what about long lasting psychological harm being done?
Another concern I have is for the aggressive dog. What if a dog he attacks retaliates. The outcome could be disastrous to the dog wearing the muzzle.
Of course, what I would do is keep this dog separated from other dogs at all times, and I do feel sorry for this dog only imagining what could have happened to him to make him react this way. Is it genetic? Environmental? A combo?
Sheri said she has fostered 100 Aussies and has never encountered one with this problem.
Would you try to rehabilitate a dog like this? If so, would the dog ever be adoptable?
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Post by Nicole on Jun 28, 2005 17:07:43 GMT -5
I agree with everything you said about the use of the muzzle. I don't think you should ever put a dog in a position of getting bullied or attacked even if the aggressor is muzzled. It can have devastating psychological effects even without an actual bite. I would never ever do that to an innocent dog. In addition, sometimes the muzzle can build such frustration that once you remove it, the aggression is intensified. Plus, as you said, the muzzled dog cannot protect against another aggressor. It is very sad but to answer your question I do not think that the dog can be rehabilitated. With intense and experienced training for a very long time maybe the dog can be controlled. But even then, I would never trust the dog with another dog. Is he adoptable? That depends. Is there a person with no animals willing to invest the time in training and keep this dog away from other dogs and deal with the liability should this dog maim or kill another dog? I know this sounds uncaring but when a dog attacks this aggressively and it sounds intense to me and it is unprovoked, it may be kinder to euthanize unless you honestly think that you can find someone who can deal effectively with this issue. The dog does not sound right in the head to me. One attack as a puppy can do this to a dog? It is heartbreaking.
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Post by Brooke on Jun 28, 2005 20:47:04 GMT -5
I dunno... I'm kind of on the fence with this one at the second. Let me sort this out a little:
Coming from a situation where I had a dog aggressive dog... we came out of it pretty good with no harm on either part.
What about the option of muzzling both dogs? I think you need to desensitize definately but whats the point of a muzzle if we are going to talk about psychological effects? Know what I mean? How often do we suggest them around here? Quite often... So whats the difference?
Dog against dog or dog against whatever.... the purpous is the same and if we are going to coin the psychological aspects of it we could do that with anything. The stress is still there. It is the whole point of the muzzle.
I think you have to look at the dogs you are pairing up for one. Look at the nerves and genetics. I would not put a terribly submissive dog in the position of being muzzled around the culprate. Muzzle or none.
Ever any human aggression? You have to be smart about it but No, I think I lean towards the fact that as long as you take those in dogs into consideration, depending on the situation, they can be rehabilitated.
I think a dog aggressive dog can definately be adoptable. I'm actually surprised you asked that as against socializing as you are Loey. ;D A dog aggressive dog can live in a home with no other dogs. There is no reason why they have to have their lives ended because they don't get along with the same race. They can still live long happy lives without that kind of interaction.
I definately do not go for the idea of euthanizing dog aggressive dogs unless they show human grade aggression as well. I feel it would be a very hard, if not impossible, and dangerous thing to attempt to rehabilitate and home a dog with dog aggression who was willing to turn on you. To me thats a no-no.
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Post by Nicole on Jun 29, 2005 4:25:15 GMT -5
Brooke. You have misunderstood. We are not talking about the psychological effects of the dog who is muzzled. We were discussing Shari allowing her dog to get his throat attacked by an aggressive muzzled dog. We are talking about the effects on Shari's dog who is an innocent bystander. And don't forget your dog was 8 weeks old when you learned he had an aggression problem. There's a big difference between an eight week old pup and an adult dog up for adoption. In this situation, i weigh in my mind the millions of adoptable dogs waiting for a home and the unliklihood of finding a proper home for a dog with such a problem. I personally care as much about another dog getting hurt as I do a human getting hurt. I don't think one is less concerning than the other. And there is a difference between the definition of rehabilitation and control. The former to me means the dog now loves dogs and can frolic with them. The latter to me means the dog is trained to ignore and to not attack them. And a muzzle is recommended by us in case the dog breaks free of its owner to avoid injury. You are entitled to your opinion, of course ;D, but I did want to clear up any misconceptions.
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Post by willow on Jun 29, 2005 9:53:02 GMT -5
Yes, Brooke, I believe you misunderstood too. This dog is deadly serious in his unprovoked attacks, with the intent to kill the other dog, and there is no doubt he would if given the chance. If it had been me that had taken this dog in (and this in itself surprises me, because there is no rescue I know of that takes in known dog/dog or dog/human aggressive dogs. The liability is too great, and none of the rescues I have been associated with or have heard about would even knowlingly consider taking in a dog like this, let alone consider adopting it out) I would not have had this dog off leash around my dogs (or any others for that matter), eventhough he was muzzled, because while a dog cannot do physical harm to another dog while wearing a muzzle, they can certainly do psychological harm to another dog. How many times do we hear that a dog was attacked by an aggressive dog and became aggressive because of it? Or becomes terrified of all other dogs after the attack? As to a dog being perfectly capable of living in a one dog household....of course they can. But, again because of liability issues, a dog like this could not be adopted out unless it was completely re-habilitated, because very few adopters have the knowledge and experience to manage a dog like this and a rescue simply cannot take the chance. What are the chances of a dog like this being completely re-habilitated? I think we all have enough experience in this area to also know the answer to that question. Quoting Brook here: "I'm actually surprised you asked that as against socializing as you are Loey. " ;D :)Do I detect a little snideness in this remark? Again, I think you misunderstand. I am not totally against socialization, I just think it is waaaaay over emphasized, while disregarding the fact that it is much more important to have a dog obedience trained and controllable around other dogs. Personally, I am just as against overly friendly dogs running up and "attacking" my dogs in a friendly manner as I am of an aggressive dog running up and attacking them in an aggressive manner. Either way, the dog is out of control. And yes, I do feel that forcing a dog to socialize with other dogs does not automatically assure that it will be a social dog because of that, but that it can have and often does actually have the opposite effect. I hope we completely understand each other now and I am done.
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Post by Laura on Jun 29, 2005 11:58:48 GMT -5
Loey, I think this dog can definitely be turned around, but he should not be in Sheri's house with her dogs at this time, his sensitivity level to other dogs is way too high right now, and it'll only get worse if he stays there. By putting a muzzle on the dog and then allowing him to pin another dog will only serve to increase the level of aggression in this case, he sounds like a combination of fear of other dogs and what Donaldson calls "Tarzan" behavior, a dog that just has no idea how to act around others of it's own kind.
Did she bring this dog directly into her house when she got him? Where did she have them meet (the dogs)? Is he crated?
Can they find a behaviorist to work with him? Or could they afford a phone consult with Cesar Milan in Los Angeles? He's one of the best trainers I've ever seen with dog on dog aggression.
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Post by sibemom on Jun 29, 2005 16:20:17 GMT -5
I gave alot of thought to what I was going to say before I posted it so here goes. I agree with what Loey and Nicki are saying. I think Shari bringing that dog into her home with her own dogs was a big mistake. I also think that it could very well leave some bad memories for Shari's dogs and cause problems some maybe irreversable. I agree with Laura that MAYBE this dog could be turned around, but now here comes the part I gave alot of thought to before I posted it. I DO NOT THINK IT IS WORTH IT, JMHO. With the countless dogs out there that do not have this kind of a problem WHY do we continue to try and save the ones that do. I know in some cases you see someting special in the dog, not that they are not all special in their own way. I know that we humans feel such compasion for the sad story that comes along with them, and put our own feelings into it. In all reality dogs with this kind of baggage should be PTS before they cause injury. I know it sounds like picking and choosing but WE HAVE TO, or foster homes would be up to their ears in dogs that take to long to rehabilitate or to much funding to rehabilitate. I personaly do not mind dealing with dog/dog aggresion, maybe because I have always had success with curbing it, NOT CURING IT, but managing it. True dog aggresive dogs IMHO, can not be fixed it must be managed and controlled and is still a liability for the novice handler/owner, BUT a dog that is fearful, and has no idea how to act around another dog that is a different story. This dog sounds to me like he is a true dog aggresive dog and not one that lacks social graces. I have been reading about this dog on the rescue list and believe me I think he is beyond help. I also do not think the rescue should waste their time on him, yes I know that is a strong statement but it is one that I firmly believe in. DO NO HARM would be my motto and to discount bringing in another REALLY GOOD DOG to foster care because this one is taking up space and funds is doing harm to the very adoptable trainable dogs. I would much rather see a dog with a medical condition have money spent on it for surgery, medications etc... than to waste time on a dog like this. This is a hard reality each and every rescue faces everyday and to be fair to the PA's and to the dogs I think this was a very bad move on Shari's part. Aussies are intense dogs then to get one with this type of behavior this is an accident waiting to happen and then the potential damage it could do to her own dogs, NO THANKS! WHEW glad I got that off my chest
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Post by willow on Jun 29, 2005 18:16:09 GMT -5
Laura, interesting you should mention Jean Donaldson. I have the book you are talking about and have been re-reading some of it. A couple of things jumped out at me, and I will quote them, but first, for those that don't have the book, what Ms. Donaldson recommends for rehabilitating an aggressive dog is to put it into a regular "play session group" with "bullet proof" dogs who "bounce back with no ill effects if attacked by another dog." She also says if the offending dog does not have good ABI (acquired bite inhibition) it should be muzzled and kept on a long line at first. She also says you have to have experienced people in breaking up dog fights, preferably one person for each dog in the group, and a "fight kit", which consists of metal pans, gloves, citronella spray and a "break stick".
Now to a couple of quotes:
"There are two genuine risks to the dogs used in training exercises or remedial socialization. 1) physical damage should the dog bite them badly, and 2) an aversive experience resulting in fear conditioning even in the absence of a damaging bite."
Now I ask you. Who in their right mind would put their dog at risk like this, no matter how "bullet proof" it is? I sure wouldn't!!! I love my dogs too much, plus I sure don't have the $$$$ for continual Vet visits to have them patched up. Page 22 paragraph 2 on assessing "bite inhibition".
Another quote from Ms Donaldson: (italicized words are mine.) "The reason ABI is so critical is that the risk of a bite both during and post rehabilitation is huge. When ABI is good, the pace of rehabilitation can be more aggressive and strong reliance on muzzles unnecessary. Subsequent to rehab, there is assurance that any normal squabbling throughout the dogs life, will be without serious ramification. In contrast, a dog with poor ABI must be managed much more carefully during rehab. And, even if the presenting problem is beautifully resolved, the liklihood of any individual dog making it to the end of his life without ever having one altercation with another dog is low. And with prior knowledge that any such altercation will result in serious injure, there is some strong moral and legal imperative to manage tightly forever more." but IMO any thinking person can see what she is really saying here. There is no such thing as rehabilitation in the sense that the dog will never fight again, and unless a dog has good ABI, the consequences could be deadly, or at least expensive. Even a dog with good ABI is capable of inflicting puncture wounds, (again page 22) which would require a trip to the vet in most dogs...the sibe possibly being the exception.
For a rescue to knowingly take in this type of dog, unless upon qualified evaluation of the dog it is prepared to put the dog down, because this would be the more humane thing to do, is nothing less than irresponsible. Unless of course, one of the volunteers wants to take on the reponsibilty of the dog, but I don't think, according to Ms. Donaldsons experience, these dogs should ever be adopted out.
I agree with Ann in her assessment of the problem. It isn't worth it, because few rescues have the ability to hire the trainer's it would require, and then the dog shouldn't be adopted out anyway.
Now, I will also say, that there have been dogs that have come into rescues that clearly displayed aggressive tendencies, but upon being put into a foster home and having a normal home life again, these dogs turned out fine and were able to be adopted out, and have had no further problems, but these are few and far between. Let's hope this Aussie turns out to be one of those dogs! ;D
I think this is a very interesting subject, indeed.
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Post by Laura on Jun 29, 2005 20:25:01 GMT -5
Loey, while I have the book, there's a LOT I disagree with, one being her methodology for training ABI and dealing with dog aggression, but her observations are pretty accurate in what to look for in the different kinds of dog aggression. The first thing I would do is to find a "bulletproof" dog, but not only bulletproof, but also with top notch, rock solid obed. training. Then I'd take that Aussie on a run for about an hour, "tire him out until his tongue is dragging on the ground" kind of run. Then a training collar, choke chain is actually preferable this time to a prong, but you can use a prong too, as long as it's perfectly fit high up on the neck. Take the dog on a short, traffic length leash so you have total control of the dogs head, and the Aussie is in heel position right next to you. Have the bulletproof dog with another handler about 15 feet away. Before the Aussie hits the "zone", watch for the signs, tight eyes, ears back, whatever, but at the very first sign, no matter how tiny, check him with the leash and take his focus off of the other dog. You can get closer and closer each pass until the other handler can walk right past you with the other dog with no conflicts, and then then the other handler passes you the bulletproof dog and you walk both of them. Easy to do? Yes. Need cojones of steel to pull it off? Absolutely. If the Aussie feels the slightest bit of tension or apprehension from you or the other handler, you're finished. You take total control of the Aussie and immediately establish your leadership with him by your stance and posture and attitude, you can get him on the right track. My take on this? I'd rehab him in a heartbeat, if only from the standpoint that I happen to love working with the tough ones, I consider it a challenge to my skills (or lack thereof ) and the rewards are enormous for myself and the dog, who gets to live out his life in a happy home.
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Post by willow on Jun 29, 2005 21:51:32 GMT -5
So what you are telling me Laura, is that if someone would take this dog and work it like you said, it is guaranteed it would be rehabilitated and be able to go to the average adopter and be completely safe around other dogs? What you just described is what I do with all of my dogs, even though they are not aggressive, but I call it "training to ignore other dogs". I want my dogs focused on me, not every other dog around them. That's what I don't understand. So many so called trainer's today only train a dog to ignore other dogs after they have already become aggressive. Up to then, they tell people their dog should be "socialized to other dogs" by letting them romp/play/accept all other dogs so that they are all one big happy family! Maybe if they ob trained the dog and taught him from the beginning that they couldn't go up to every Tom, boy thingy and Harry dog on the street, at parks, or ob classes, their dogs would not become aggressive to begin with. You've heard the saying, "It's all fun and games until someone loses an eye". That's what eventually happens in these free for all socializations. Eventually fights will break out. Then along comes people like Ms. Donaldson who tell us our dogs are aggressive because we didn't "socialize" them with other puppies after they left the litter, and charge exorbitant prices to fix the problem we caused, and at the same time tell us the problem can't really be "fixed". Not a word is said about T-r-a-i-n-i-n-g the dog, and neutering, which goes a long way to curb aggression and which I believe would stop most problems from developing in the first place. But then they would be out of a job, wouldn't they!! Dogs learn aggression by allowing them to run uncontrolled with strange dogs and they call it "socializing them". Oh, well.... ...and as long as my way works, I don't care how wonderful a certain trainer or behaviorist is, I won't adopt their theories, and I also don't blindly accept what they saycauses the aggression. They are not Gods, just a human like me. ;D
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Post by Brooke on Jun 30, 2005 0:00:25 GMT -5
Quoting Brook here: "I'm actually surprised you asked that as against socializing as you are Loey. " ;D :)Do I detect a little snideness in this remark? No! I didn't mean it like that at all! You should know me better than that! I genuinely was surprised that you wouldn't feel a dog aggressive dog was adoptable because I knew you didn't like the practice of dogs meeting up with other strange dogs anyway. I didn't mean anything rude by it at all. It just struck me a different way I guess. Sorry if you thought I did I agree...didn't read very well either. I have been skimming over a lot of the posts lately and not reading very clearly and in depth because of lack of time. Thats not a good thing. I should learn when to keep my yapper shut I haven't had much time to invest here lately and I feel bad for it. I'm rushing around all the time with so much going on and I feel guilty for not being around here as much as I want to be.
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Post by Laura on Jun 30, 2005 0:29:35 GMT -5
So what you are telling me Laura, is that if someone would take this dog and work it like you said, it is guaranteed it would be rehabilitated and be able to go to the average adopter and be completely safe around other dogs? Can't say that about this particular dog, unless I've seen it with my own two peepers and work with it myself . Then, and only then, can I make a judgement call on how the dog will behave in a pack setting. I've done it with a few of the rescue dogs we've had that were so dog aggressive that the CACC would've had them put down, but most of these dogs were more fear based aggessors from living tied up in junkyards ( a popular practice with Siberians in NY) with little to no contact with their own species. Once you teach them that other dogs aren't that perceived threat, they tend to be fine for the rest of the duration. I know you're not big on socialization, and while we both agree that most of these "socializing" sessions are nothing more than aggression issues waiting to happen, I think that many dogs are missing out on some important lessons by NOT being with other, well-behaved dogs as pups. And when I say being with well behaved dogs, I mean those that are very dog tolerant themselves, with a solid foundation in obedience training, and maybe ONE or TWO of them, not some dogfest gone amok as I see in so many places these days. I live in an suburban environment and work in an urban one, dogs are literally on top of each other in the city, so due to the lack of space, I think it's important that dogs that live in that environment be extremely dog tolerant (a phrase I prefer over "socialized", a term that's become to broad and overused for my liking). Do I still think this Aussie can be adopted out? Yes, but to an owner that's dog savvy and knows what they're getting. He just may be a terrific match for someone who has no other pets, as long as they're willing to sacrifice going to the dog park (not such a sacrifice in my book anyway ;D). Apparently, you must use the proper name of Richard to turn that phrase in here .
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Post by sibemom on Jun 30, 2005 4:13:39 GMT -5
Yes I would like to go and take a look at this dog myself. I agree with Loey alot about the big push to socialize pups. I am not saying you should'nt but I see so much damage being done, even in a controlled enviorment. I guess alot depends on the dog itself. Now with Blade and Willow because of their behaviors I thought taking them to a group class was best but then I took Blade out of the classes, finished him at home on our own and he did much better. Willow was never really challanged much by other dogs but she too, now that we have had this summer break aside from drill team practice, does better on her own. Organized puppy play time is fine if it is just for young pups, but what seems to happen is that older pups start coming in and if they are a little pissy it can frighten the younger ones which can have a lasting damaging affect. I think too with this particular dog and with it being an Aussie, they are not as forgiving as some breeds. They are so smart and seem to retain memory as far as abuse and improper handeling. See if this was just somebody who came across the dog and not someone who is running a rescue then fine do what you can for the poor thing. I still think though that even though I have not seen the dog, this is a case of BAD BREEDING, BAD HANDELING, and ABUSE. Now weather the dog can get past it, I don't know I have not seen it, but IMHO it does not belong in rescue because they are crying right now for more foster homes and unless someone wants to claim this dog as their own and deal with the problem and try to rehabilitate it, then the space should be made free for a dog who is not quite as much of a liability, and that could be adopted out quicker. I still do not think there is any gaurentee where this dog is concered even if they would spend the money and make a call to "THE DOG WHISPERER". I just do not think it is fair to the other dogs waiting to come in. I hate this pick and choose attitude but the words always go through my head when we discuss taking in new dogs, and that is "You can't save them all" it breaks my heart but then again it would kill me to see this dog rehabilitated and then find out that it attacked and killed an unsuspecting dog somewhere else. IT SUCKS
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Post by willow on Jun 30, 2005 9:48:33 GMT -5
Apparently, you must use the proper name of Richard to turn that phrase in here .[/quote] I noticed that too and was going to change the nickname for Richard to Richard so at least it wouldn't come up "thingy", but I was too tired to make another edit. ! Laura I am sure there are dogs that can come in to rescue, be taught that other dogs are no big deal and come out fine, and as you said, before we do a lot of speculating, we would have to see the dog in person. I have em'd Sheri and asked what has happened to the dog etc., but have not received a reply as yet. Like you, I would not be afraid to "take this dog on" if I thought he could be managed, because the training to ignore other dogs is easy, as you said, it was something I required in my ob classes, even with dog friendly dogs, because the hour I spent with them was a learning hour not "happy hour". ;D The other dogs he is around would be on leash, as he would be. He is not people aggressive (yet) so you shouldn't have to worry about him aggressing towards you, unless in his frustration to get at the other dog(s) he begins to display displaced aggression, which is a definite possibility and concern. A lot of time all these dogs need is to be shown that their behavior around other dogs is unacceptable. Chances are his previous owner was heavily into PP or no training and ignored his bad behavior until it escalated to this point, where a collar correction and/or simple "no" could have prevented him from reaching this point. JMO and the sad thing is, is that with the lack of qualified trainer's and foster homes in the rescue, we will probably never find out.
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Post by willow on Jun 30, 2005 9:53:30 GMT -5
Brooke, no need to apologize and I did not take offense. How could I when I am guilty of purposely giving a dig now and then! (Now I wouldn't do that, would I? )
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