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Post by Am on Jun 20, 2005 17:12:56 GMT -5
I had the worst night ever last night and feel the need to vent, so please bear with me! Monsta and I started going to the local agility club a few weeks ago - just for fun, not for competition. The first session I was a little worried since I wasn't sure how well my boy would handle working around so many other strange dogs, but he did me proud. Kept his focus really well, worked very hard, and no rude staring or growly episodes at all. So we go back this week, and we're doing tunnel work. We're putting the dog in one end, running alongside the tunnel and meeting them at the other end, and it's going really well. Then suddenly it all turns to custard. Devil-dog happily flies in one end of the tunnel, flies out the other then launches himself straight at an innocent-looking Golden Retriever he has never even met, fangs barred and snarling. I throw myself at him and intercept him with a flying rugby tackle before he can connect, and he immediately shuts up and acts sheepish. Aaaargh! He was doing so well! He hasn't done this kind of thing in months! What the heck is going on with my dog!? And for the record - he was on leash the remainder of the session, and worked really well. Focused on me on request (even in the presence of the Retriever), worked really hard, no rude or growly episodes. Once again, aaargh!
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Post by Tammi21 on Jun 20, 2005 21:31:46 GMT -5
I'm so sorry here that. Monsta was doing so well too. Is there anyway you could just do the agility training without the other dogs around? I know that’s not point but I’m sure you can find other fun and less stressful things to do with your doggy.
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Post by Nicole on Jun 21, 2005 16:27:30 GMT -5
I know we would all love to have dogs that are predictably nice to other dogs all of the time. Sadly, I think those dogs are the rarity. Yes, you can control your dog with OB but with adults, I think loving all other dogs is not the norm. Certain breeds do but not all and not Monsta's breed and not Sunny's either. Dogs can smell a threat or a dominant dog a distance away. He may have seen a gesture so subtle. Whatever the reason, he can't at this time be trusted off leash with other dogs. It isn't the end of the world. Maybe you can get to a place in your training that you can control each experience. I don't know.
Sunny does not do well with intact males, some neutered males, any dog that challenges him or puppies jumping on him. He never instigates but will finish and will never back down. Consequently, I train so that he ignores dogs (not all...he loves females and some submissive males) but I also would never allow him in an organized off leash activity with a mix of dogs. That is his life. I accept that he cannot do this.
I doubt this is helpful to you. I just want to make the point that not every dog is suited to engage in off leash dog activities. Did you know that adult wolves never play unless they are babysitting pups. Their lives are confirming their pack place and that is it. Most adult dogs are no different.
I wish you and Monsta the best whatever you decide.
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Post by Am on Jun 21, 2005 19:00:06 GMT -5
Thanks for your kind words, Tammi and Nicole. After calming down a bit and thinking it through, I think I have more insight into what happened. The big golden was standing relatively close to the mouth of the tunnel when my dog rocketed out. I suspect that when he ran out of the tunnel, the surprise of suddenly seeing the golden unexpectedly close by was enough to set him off. In any case, I've decided that we'll be attempting to find a good solid muzzle before next weeks class, to guarantee the safety of the other dogs if he decides to flip his lid again. I accept that he's never going to be entirely trustworthy off leash around other dogs (I'd never ever just turn him loose to play with a bunch of strange dogs, for example). But he's not going to get better at staying calm in the presence of strange dogs without actually ever being in the presence of strange dogs, and a controlled event like this is probably the best way to go about it. Going along to these types of things seems to have improved his behaviour markedly over the last few months, so I'm not ready to give up quite yet.
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Post by Tammi21 on Jun 21, 2005 19:16:46 GMT -5
I'm glad you are taking this so well. And it sounds like you have a good plan. I wish you luck
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Post by sibemom on Jun 22, 2005 4:37:36 GMT -5
Yes Nicki was right on here. My GSD has come a long way with her dog aggresion issues. For the most part we can be in many a situation with other dogs and she is fine. With her and I chukled a bit when I read your post, she HATES Golden Retrievers. I have no idea why but for her every Golden she meets is an enemy. We work through it like Nicki explained with what she does with Sunny, by teaching them to ignore other dogs. What makes it harder for us though is the kennel club we belong to has ALOT of goldens, so during drill team practice etc... I have to keep her on leash most of the time untill I know for sure she is going to ignore the other dogs and just focus on me. We have done some off leash excersises in the group but only when I know I can run faster than her The one thing that will help you is to make sure that her recall is bullet proof. That is what has saved us over and over. When she would focus in on a golden I knew exactly what was going to happen, but because her recall is faultless, it kept her from getting into a brawl. Keep working at it, and keep a close eye on Monsta. As long as you are aware of what can happen, then you should be ok.
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Post by Am on Jun 23, 2005 20:18:38 GMT -5
Thanks Tammi and Sibemum. We will keep working at it, though sometimes it's VERY disheartening. It's even more annoying because it's just so darn unpredicable. A few weeks ago at obedience club, he did several perfect recalls in a group of strange dogs - and yes, we were all recalling our dogs at the same time! And then he goes and does this. Aaargh. Perhaps he'll listen if I threaten him to swap him for a golden!
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Post by Laura on Jun 24, 2005 1:10:53 GMT -5
Don't sweat it too much, it's a small setback at most. For now, can you run him through the agility course on a lunge line? It may take a few practice runs to keep him from getting tangled up (as well as you!) but it may be worth the peace of mind to know you can catch him quickly if need be.
I hope Aussienot comes on and sees this, she went through the same thing with Finn, she can probably give you better guidance on how to handle it.
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Post by Nicole on Jun 24, 2005 7:00:48 GMT -5
Laura, you are right! Aussie did go through a similar thing! If you search the archives..not sure if it is in sport dog, training or aggression,...you will find her thread. I believe she left the agility group, practiced with her own equipment, tightened up her recall with an e-collar and then joined the group again. I think that is how she handled it. Hopefully she will be by to give you some advice.
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Post by Am on Jun 24, 2005 19:31:53 GMT -5
Thanks Laura and Nicole I'll search the archives, and cross my fingers for Aussienot appearing so I can bug her too. Now that I think about it, I haven't seen her here for a while - hope she's OK. Funny you should say about the e-collar for proofing recall, Nicole. I was considering that earlier this month, and then the cat got ill. One night trip to the emergency vet unfortunately wiped out the "e-collar savings budget". Hmmm, maybe next month... But we're well trained round here - the cat comes first!
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Post by Aussienot on Jun 24, 2005 23:22:57 GMT -5
Hi, I'm back. Hey, did I post this? Yep, Monstra is a small dark Finn. Time for some hard earned truths. In agility, there are always going to be dogs nearby. There's always going to be one dog inconveniently at the end of the tunnel that is far more tantalising than the next obstacle. This was not a one off, it's the start of a pattern.
You can keep Monstra on leash. You can try the muzzle, but I suspect it will take all of the drive out of him. You can ask the club to clear the field and run him in relative safety. Or you can work on your foundation obedience. You simply can't do group agility without control around other dogs.
In the June issue of Clean Run, there is an excellent but sobering article on Foundation classes. Things like a sit stay - for three minutes off lead with you at least two meters away and the chaos of an agility class going on all around. Can you let him loose on the field of dogs, toys and food to socialise and explore, then recall back to you? Can you send him 5 meters ahead to the table when there are other dogs nearby?
There are some of the fundamental controls you need to turn your dog loose on a course. With a non-agressive dog, the risk of not having that control is that the handler looks stupid when the dog breaks from the course. With an agressive dog, the risk is a fight.
Finn was reasonably advanced in agility when he started breaking courses to intimidate the other dogs. I'd get one or two good runs out of him, and somewhere between jumps 13 and 14, he'd turn left instead of right and end up at the Boxer.
I tried putting him in a submissive long down stay. I also tried ending the fun - a break from the course meant he went to the car by himself in shame and there was no more fun that night. And I that's when I got an electric collar and went back to control exercises. I worked Finn on the edge of an agility class for several weeks and got a reasonable amount of control, but Finn didn't have much fun.
And yes, I did get him back into group, but since we weren't going to compete we got tired of doing the same old things. I still drop in every once in a while for a strict 'two run' night. I gave up gorup classes and on the idea of competing, and do my own sessions for fun. I can get a few familiar dogs around, or do it in my backyard with my neighbor's German Shepherd. We are back to having fun with it. There are not a lot of bull terriers in group agility classes, and not many sight hounds. Ever wondered why?
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Post by Am on Jun 25, 2005 2:56:01 GMT -5
Thanks (again), Aussie. Herein lies my problem, I guess. His obedience around strange dogs isn't going to get any better without working him around various strange dogs. And the only way I can see of doing that is in some kind of structured group class. But I really don't want to put the other dogs at risk - and I've just discovered that at the moment, despite how much he's improved, he is still a danger to them. I will try finding him a muzzle in order to keep him in class. But I suspect you are right, and that it will kill his enthusiasm for the sport. At the moment, one part of me's going "Agility! Who needs it? Learning to run through tunnels is not fundamental to my dog's happiness!" But the other part of me knows that it's not really just an agility thing. No matter what I do, I can't guarantee he'll never meet another dog. I can manage his life up to a point - but leashes break, collars slip, stupid people ignore leashlaws and neighbours leave gates open. He's going to have to learn to deal with other dogs at some point, whether he likes it or not, for his own safety. Will keep you all posted. Fingers crossed for us on Monday night, folks!
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Post by willow on Jun 25, 2005 7:25:09 GMT -5
IMO, we should pick a sport for the breed of dog we have, not the other way around.
For instance, when I had Labs, along with ob training, they were trained for hunting and/or field trials, because that is what they excell at.
Now I have an Aussie and a BC, so I certainly wouldn't try to train them to compete in Retriever Trials or try to make hunting dogs out of them. It would make us all miserable. It is like a parent picking a profession or sport for their child, because it is something they always wanted to do, even if the child doesn't want to do that or is not good at it.
AM if you just want to work your dog with other dogs, there are other ways to do it rather than to force him to do something he is not suited for.
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Post by Aussienot on Jun 25, 2005 18:38:22 GMT -5
Willow brings up an interesting, valid, but to me, somewhat sensitive point. Owning a mixed breed with some bull terrier, I am overly sensitive to the doors that are automatically shut to him. I like going against type and beating the odds. I love to see breeds besides Border Collies and Shelties in agility simply because I don't want it the exclusive domain of the herding breeds. It is supposed to be the inclusive sport, for all breeds.
The other side of my brain totally understands that breeds were bred to do specific things, and these lend themselves to certain activities. Sailor is a natural retriever, but she couldn't herd sheep or guard a property, or bring down a running gazelle. Could she be taught to do these things? Maybe, as a kind of parlor trick, but she'd never be as good as a dog genetically designed to do these things instinctively and some things will always be out of her grasp.
Finn can track, but a Bloodhound would do it better. He could be a personal protection dog, but a heavier dog would do it better. He'd freeze his nuts as a sled dog, and unfortunately, gazelle hunting is not yet an organised dog sport. (Lure coursing is kinda, well, weak.) He's fast, muscular and highly trainable, so I thought I could apply his athletic versatility to competition agility. And yes, it was like pushing water uphill.
So, is there no such thing as an all purpose dog? I suppose that the more you deviate from breeds with a purpose, the more 'average' the whole becomes. Eventually we'd end up with dogs that weren't very good at anything - breeds without a purpose.
As someone said to me once, "If you want to do agility, get a working dog".
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Post by Am on Jun 26, 2005 18:52:12 GMT -5
Willow, I see your point, but I think you're missing mine. I didn't enrol him in this class because I wanted him to compete in agility. I enrolled him because I need to keep him in group activities, and picked beginners agility simply because I thought he might get a kick out of it.
At the moment he seems pretty happy there, and is learning well. He seems to quite enjoy tackling the obstacles, and absolutely loves the praise and attention he gets for his efforts. I'm not "forcing" him to do something he hates - apart from this one incident, he's been focused and eager in class.
The agility is not the problem. The problem is his behaviour towards other dogs. Switching to another type of group activity isn't going to change that. If he can't behave politely towards strange dogs in agility class, he's not going to start being polite just because I enroll him in flyball or dog dancing instead!
Or are you recommending that I pull him from group activities all together? That would certainly be a much easy route for me, but I don't think you could call it a long term solution. He needs to practice his manners round other dogs for everyone's safety. And whether or not this particular class is right for him, I'd certainly rather he practiced his manners in a controlled group class like this than down at the local dog park.
Edited to add - I know it is tempting to excuse all of Monsta's flaws as being a "typical of a bull terrier", but to be honest I don't think breed is a major factor here.
Obviously he's no border collie, and like I said I don't ever expect him to ever reach competition level. But both of the other staffs in our agility class are doing quite well (yes, despite their breed), and I know for a fact that at least a couple of staffs ranked moderately well at the World Agility Champs last year.
So expecting him to be a miserable failure at basic agility simply because he's a staff seems kind of strange to me.
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