barb
housebroken
Posts: 78
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Post by barb on May 29, 2005 7:54:31 GMT -5
We have a year old Lab/Shepherd mix we got from a shelter 3 weeks ago. He has been a great dog and alot of fun but the other day I had my future sister in law (with baby) and mother in law over and he met them outside, we came inside and everything was fun they were petting him and everything. The baby started crying and he walked up to her and was sniffing her like he wanted to help, I called him and was petting him (just b/c I had never seen him with a baby) and we got the baby to calm down. I then gave Moose a rawhide and he was in 7th heaven. My future mother in law walked behind him and when she was away from him he got up growled, showed his teeth and lounged at her. I yelled his name and he stopped immediately and came to me. I took the rawhide away thinking that maybe he thought she was going to take it. He let me take it and it was fine. Then my sis in law got up and he growled at her he was by me at the time. He did this a few more times ( I held him and petted him during this time). When my mother in law got up to leave (now the boyfriend was in the room with the dog) Moose got up and did the same thing he did the first time. Needless to say this scared her. My bf put the dog in the kennel and when my sis in law went outside he barked at her like crazy. I have never seen him this way and we are seriously thinking about bringing him back to the shelter which is hard for us because we love him SO MUCH. What do you think we should do? Is this something that will get worse or continue? It was so unexpected and unprovoked we are worried about anytime there are people here. Like I said he was fine at first............
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Post by sibemom on May 29, 2005 19:26:49 GMT -5
Ok let's get this straight The dog was fine untill you gave a rawhide and then when your MIL went behind him he behavied badly, then you petted him, the next outburst he had you again petted him HMMMM I am starting to see a very bad pattern here and it's not with your dog. The first thing you have only had this dog 3 weeks, and because he came from a shelter you have no idea what his true backround is, he at this point is JUST starting to settle in and feel comfortable. This dog has not been in your family long enough to earn total freedom of your home or freedom to mingle with all guests. This dog needs to be put on NILIF NOW! Don't take him back WORK IT OUT and WORK THROUGH IT, Train your dog and TRAIN YOURSELF. If that were my dog the first outburst would not have gotten pets from me, it would have been a quick trip to his crate and shut the door, Nothing said no to do about it just off to your crate PERIOD. Every time you cuddle him when he acts badly it is encouraging the behavior to continue. I suggest you read our article on NILIF and follow it to the letter, also purchase yourself a pinch collar and read the article we have about that. TEACH THIS DOG to be a Good well behavied canine citizen and you and your dog will be extremly happy ;D This could have been resource gaurding, owner gaurding or just plain "Hey I have had enough of this company now GET OUT! " Who know they are dogs and no one can figure them out totaly. Give this dog a chance. If you can't train him on your own enroll in a group OB class. The structure of the class and the NILIF program does wonders for unruley dogs. I hope this helps ;D
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barb
housebroken
Posts: 78
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Post by barb on May 29, 2005 19:50:10 GMT -5
You make me out to sound like a bad dog owner . I have had dogs ALL my life. This is the first time I have had any aggression like this with a dog before and it scared me. We do not crate him, he has a kennel outside. He is a good dog most of the time ( the typical puppy stuff) this was a scary thing for all involved. We DONT want to bring him back but when he acted this way unprovoked it had sent a bad taste in our mouths. We talked to the shelter today and they told us to call the Supervisor to get our 30 day return policy extended so we can train him. We are also going to call the unleash program ( I think that is what they called it at the shelter, the BF wrote it down) and see what they say... I have been up crying all night about this because we love this dog and want to keep him. I have been on this site and on the internet all day also trying to read advice on what to do. I DID print the NILIF stuff and am going to work on that. Like I said he is a wonderful dog who does not do anything like this ever. We are going to take him for a walk tomorrow and see what he does. To clarify this whole thing also, I did yell at him to stop and he did immediately and came to me. That is when I pet him (for coming to me when I told him to). I also held him until he calmed down. I did not put him into the kennel outside because my boyfriend was adjusting something on the doghouse.
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Post by Aussienot on May 30, 2005 1:12:11 GMT -5
I think that the dog had too much freedom to make his own decisions. If he really had too much of the company, he had no alternative but to show aggression, since no one picked up on any other signals that he might have been sending.
I'm not excusing aggressive behavior, it's not acceptable. But you need to make sure he isn't pushed, until you have a better understanding of what his tolerance for stress is. He's had a lot to cope with. Being left caged in a shelter can't be good for any dog's psyche. Dogs crave rules, structure and certainty, and I'm not sure how much of that he's getting right now. It's not a question of love, it's a question of creating an enviroment a dog can live in.
With a new dog, it's much better to crate him the first few times company comes over, as this takes the stress of meeting strangers out of the picture.
Put him into Nothing in Life is Free (NILIF). Make that his new way of life. I don't know if you have a crate, but please look into getting one if you don't. You need a crate for inside the house in addition to the outside kennel. Don't expose him to company for a few weeks, but do get him out for plenty of on-leash exercise. And please read Sibemom's answer again as there's good advice there.
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Post by sibemom on May 30, 2005 4:16:02 GMT -5
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barb
housebroken
Posts: 78
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Post by barb on May 30, 2005 8:39:14 GMT -5
My boyfriend emailed the unleashed training people the Humane society recommended and we are waiting for a response. It is hard not to cry because I am attached to him and I want to train him so we can see the problems and fix them. I will let you know how the walk goes. I was not going to let people approach him because of not knowing how he would respond. We want to see if he shows any signs or triggers. We have not walked him at a park yet mainly b/c we have 2 acres of land and excerise him ALL the time... Now we know that we have to get him accostomed to strangers. I started the NILIF program. It is hard to just ignore him when he puts his head on my lap to be pet but I did and he just laid down at my feet. I have always made him sit when giving him a treat and now I make him sit before eating.
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Post by Nicole on May 30, 2005 15:31:27 GMT -5
What you are describing is really not such an uncommon problem reported by owners of newly adopted dogs. I believe that what you are describing is dominance aggression. Dominance aggression is much easier to fix than if it were fear based. You simply must convince this dog that he has no authority in your family structure including over guests.
The dog enters a new environment and is surrounded by new people and having no experience with this situation, the dog has no idea where he fits in the pack structure. In most instances, there hasn’t been a clear rank structure put in place by the humans or there hasn’t been enough time to do so. So what does he do. He takes charge.
If you look at a wolf pack and assume that domesticated dogs maintain wolf behavior and instincts at least to some extent (I personally believe it is to a very large extent), your dogs behavior is not that unusual. In the wild the alpha dog is the only one who decides what everyone else does. He decides when the other wolves move, when they sleep, when they eat and when they leave the area. Now if you examine your dogs behavior, he is protesting people getting up, daring to walk near him, leaving the room or moving about because he has essentially taken charge of the room and has not given anyone permission to do anything. This is my opinion.
You have received excellent advice and NILIF is really so important and also that you are consistent with your rules. Also don’t love on the dog so much as hard as that may be. You need to be a bit aloof, alpha is aloof...give attention and praise when it is deserved..but don’t hang on the dog. Not that you are doing this but so many people love on their dogs so much that the dog can’t help but think they are superior. After all, in the wild only alpha gets fussed over. Does that make sense.
I think that once you knock this boy down to the bottom of the pack he will be more secure and leave the direction of guests to you. I wouldn't expose him to this type of situation until you have had time to work on NILIF (the hardcore version) and obedience training. Don't be fooled by your dogs sweetness. Alpha is very sweet and kind and loving until he doesn't get his own way. So get to work!! ;D
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barb
housebroken
Posts: 78
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Post by barb on May 30, 2005 17:07:51 GMT -5
We spoke to someone today and we are going to talk to the behavior specialist at the Humane Society tomorrow instead of the unleashed people (they emailed back and they told him to call them but until we speak to the Humane Society people we will wait). We have been doing the NILI program today and make him sit when we want him to do something (eat, play etc). We did take him on a walk to the park today and he was fine when someone walked by and when a dog came by they both came to each other (the other one was not on a leash) and sniffed and parted ways. He did turn around and want to go to the dog but I think that was more I want to play with him thing. My BF pulled his leash and made him sit and he did. We then went to an area by the lake where people were fishing and launching boats, keeping our distance and watching. Phil wanted to see how he would respond to all the activity and while he watched he did just lay down and was comfortable. A few times someone walked by and he would look up sometimes sit up and that was it. He never showed any aggression. Nicole- what you said made sense about not knowing where he fit with the pack. I have read about dominance aggression. I am going to talk to the behavior specialist about it and see if that is what she thought it was. We are supposed to have a party next weekend outside and now I thinking of cancelling it. He does seem to be fine outside the home. I just dont know how he will be when someone is inside. We did say that if we did have the party he would be kenneled for part of it ( he has a doghouse he loves to go into). I dont know. I think Phil was going to see what the lady says tomorrow. You are all giving good advice and I appreciate it.
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Post by Brooke on May 30, 2005 23:26:14 GMT -5
When it come to these kinds of problems... this is the most important thread you can walk away with reading. Honestly, I think all dogs could use this structure in training. Here is a good base on what NILIF is if you haven't read it already. dogden.proboards21.com/index.cgi?board=articles&action=display&thread=1079736429Don't pass it up. It's really good material and you will see a HUGE difference in your dog once you start using it. He just needs a leader.
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barb
housebroken
Posts: 78
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Post by barb on May 31, 2005 19:32:54 GMT -5
I printed up the NILIF info and we are implimaneting it right now.
Phil spoke to the behavior specialist and she said that she thought it was fear aggression and that NILIF is a good program to do, and when people come over to put him in another room, have everyone settle down then with a leader leash have him go to each person and they will give him a treat when things are ok with them and the dog. This puts less stress on him and he can see that the people are alright. She did recommend a muzzle (one where he can still drink from) for that time. We are going to try this. She did say that he should have a crate so we are going to look into getting one.
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Post by Am on May 31, 2005 23:38:04 GMT -5
If people are going to offer her treats, make sure they do it without watching her directly. Staring straight at a dog is a dominant gesture: if she's scared will probably make her even more nervous. Have them watch her out of the corners of their eyes instead. We did this for a very shy border collie at my first obedience class - it was amazing how much happier she was taking treats from us when we sat and looked somewhere else and waited for her to approach us, rather than just walking right up to her.
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Post by Nicole on Jun 1, 2005 10:01:30 GMT -5
And make sure they aren't shoving treats in his mouth when he is acting improperly. I am not sure I agree with them about this being fear based since the dog did not act fearful in the park when approached and only acted out in his own territory where he should feel more secure than out at a park. And you haven't mentioned any other fearful or shy behavior. I would watch his behavior elsewhere a bit more or have a trainer come in and actually evaluate the dog because giving treats to a dominant dog for doing absolutely nothing is not going to help that situation. Although there are people who say give a dominant dog a treat to reward that the dog isn't growling or biting me. Sorry, but not in this lifetime. But, do what they say and let us know how it works. Keep a leash on him at all times in case you have to grab him. Keep in mind that fearful dogs aggress when cornered or theywill attack a person from behind. Unless they are cornered they typically will not agress from the front, they will retreat so...
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Post by willow on Jun 1, 2005 10:16:22 GMT -5
I think Nicki is accurate. A fearful dog will most definitely act afraid anywhere and anytime it is confronted with a "new" situation, or "new" people.
I also agree about the treat thing. They are given much too freely, which gives a dog the wrong message.
I think your dog was just overwhelmed by too much going on and too many people gathering around him and making a fuss over him. This is not a good thing to do with a new dog whom you don't know. They should be allowed to learn the routine and rules of your household with as little stress as possible put on them in the beginning, and then gradually asking them to accept more.
Not that I think dogs think or act like human's, but just as some thing you can relate to: Think how you feel when you are in a strange place and suddenly strange people are rushing up to you and greeting you etc. Even if they are friendly and trying to make you feel welcome, it can be overwhelming and I know a situation like that makes me want to run and hide.
You simply pushed the dog too quickly, and made him react in a negative way. Now you have to go back and start over, and make sure it doesn't happen again, therefore the replies Sibemom and Aussie gave were "right on" too! ;D
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