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Post by yvonnedono on Apr 19, 2005 10:43:34 GMT -5
I've posted before about my pups - Lucca and Vincent - 8 month old Sharpe/lab mixes. We have seen some aggression with Lucca. We posted some months ago about growling at visitors at our door. He is usually OK out in public (unless its children) - and does pretty well at doggy park with the people there. However, he is different at home. When visitors come, he growls and barks. Use to be that he would be just fine after ten or fifteen minutes. Recently we had a visitor over who stayed for four hours. Lucca growled and kept his distance the whole time. The visitor is a trainer and said that she felt it was fearfullness on Lucca's part - that he is just plain scared of everything and that he isn't necessarily a biter. what do we do to break him of this problem and relieve him of his fears? Is it possible even? Thanx for all your help.
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Post by amyjo on Apr 19, 2005 10:58:57 GMT -5
A good start would be crating him with a favorite chew toy when you have visitors.
He will feel more secure in his "den" and if he is truly fearful he will not feel the need to protect himself.
It will also clearly give him the message that you are in control of the situation and he only needs to worry about what is going on in his own little world (the crate) ;D
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Post by Aussienot on Apr 24, 2005 1:19:18 GMT -5
Dominance aggression responds better to training than fear aggression does. Dominance tends to be learned and therfore unlearnable, where as fear tends to be genetic and/or experiential. Often with fear, it's a case of managing the situation and avoiding the conflict, rather than correcting and resolving.
Sailor, who is fearful, needs structure and routine and clarity. If she knows what to do, if she's certain of what to expect, if she is familiar with the enviroment and the people and protected from the stress of the unknown, she's fine.
But I try not to put her under the pressure of group performance around strangers , new environments, meeting new people or behavior around dogs that I expect of Finn. I know what she can take, and I protect her from what scares her. I'm always trying to neutralise her fear, but I realise where the line is and try not to cross it till she's ready.
So Amyjo's advice was spot on. Give him a 'haven' away from the action where all he has to do is manage his emotions. You'll both be happier.
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Post by yvonnedono on Apr 26, 2005 10:44:55 GMT -5
Thanx for your input. I have a couple more questions:
1 - how do I "neutralize" the fear?
2 - if I'm going to have weekend long visitors, how do I progress the pup into a situation where he can be taken out of the kennel? Would it be similar to the visitor approaching the kennel, and when the pup stops growling, perhaps putting their hand near by to see if they get a lick?
Also, over the weekend I gave lucca a bath and he was great until I got to his face. He immediately started growling/ showing teeth - but also adding in a weird sort of whining. I didn't know if I should give him the "show him who is alpha" treatment or back off since he is scared. l Any suggestions?
Thanx again for any input. Lucca is a wonderfully sweet dog most of the time - but truely a challenge......
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Post by yvonnedono on Apr 26, 2005 10:45:18 GMT -5
OOPS SORRY - THIS IS A REPEAT. COULDN'T FIGURE OUT HOW TO DELETE THE SECOND ONE.... Thanx for your input. I have a couple more questions:
1 - how do I "neutralize" the fear?
2 - if I'm going to have weekend long visitors, how do I progress the pup into a situation where he can be taken out of the kennel? Would it be similar to the visitor approaching the kennel, and when the pup stops growling, perhaps putting their hand near by to see if they get a lick?
Also, over the weekend I gave lucca a bath and he was great until I got to his face. He immediately started growling/ showing teeth - but also adding in a weird sort of whining. I didn't know if I should give him the "show him who is alpha" treatment or back off since he is scared. l Any suggestions?
Thanx again for any input. Lucca is a wonderfully sweet dog most of the time - but truely a challenge......
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Post by Aussienot on May 1, 2005 1:45:47 GMT -5
Sorry, to be honest I'm struggling with the fear diagnosis. What was he scared of? He's apparently not scared of water, he's not scared of the slippery bath, he's not scared of you. He was fine in the bath until you did something he didn't want you to do - wash his face. Lots of dogs don't like the sensation of their face getting wet, but they don't have a go at the owner. So, yes, if he were my dog I'd go all alpha on him because I read dominance into that. I'd put a prong collar on him, and a muzzle if necessary, and wipe his face with a wet rag every day until he agreed with me that it's my right to do it. Then I would stop, as I am a benevolent and kind alpha and I'd proved my point. I'd correct any show of anger in no uncertain terms and reward shows of good behavior.
I don't necessarily disagree with the person on the scene who has seen his aggression first hand. I'm just not sure of the basis of the diagnosis. Did the visitor give you any reasons for saying it's fear?
Defense of the home is usually not a fear issue, it's an inappropriate expression of an action the dog was not meant to perform if they are not in an alpha or beta role. (Sorry, just didn't want to use the 'D' word again.) Growling and keeping a distance could just mean the dog is low in fight drive or has a high theshold. It still indicates to me that he's resource guarding, which is a dominance thing. Defense drive, in a dog, is actually 'self-defence', which is a fear thing.
Neutralising fear is done by exposing the dog to what it fears, but in a way that keeps it within the comfort zone. You are constantly and incrementally moving the comfort zone but never so fast that the dog actually becomes afraid. For example, with weekend guests, you could take Lucca out on a leash in the next room, where he can hear but not see the visitors. Try for twenty seconds of relaxed and comfortable. Reward good behavior with treats, and when you hit twenty seconds, back in the crate. Try an hour later to hit forty seconds, and eventually a couple of minutes. Then move the crate to a position where he can see the visitors but is still at a non-threatening distance. Again try twenty seconds of on-leash out of the crate, then work for extented time. Keep moving the crate closer and closer to the visitors, and keep gradually extending the out of the crate time. Keep gradually moving until he can lay down quitely beside you while you visit.
You need the utmost patience. You must move so slowly that you never allow him to become afraid. Any time Lucca goes into fear mode (if that's what it is) it re-inforces the fear response. Repeated exposure to a fearful thing actully sensitises him to the fear, lessens his fear threshold, and he will become more and more fearful. Repeated episodes of being calm and rewarded at a safe distance from the thing he fears will de-sensitise, or neutralise his fear.
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Post by yvonnedono on May 2, 2005 8:43:00 GMT -5
Over the weekend we took Lucca and Vince to a "Pet Behaviorist" who spent time with them. Her conclusion is that Lucca is not "fearful" just affraid of some things. She is very much against the alpha thing. Especially with dogs with Shar Pei in them.
She gave us a technique to try when visitors came - and we used it that afternoon and it worked quite well. It actually seems similar to what you described in your recent reply.
She said that one of us should have him on leash in another room when the visitor comes us. The other person answers the door and asks the visitor not to make eye contact with Lucca and go to another area in the house and have a conversation.
In the meantime, the person with Lucca feeds him treats - tries to make him sit and concentrate on other training exercises. He eventually became happier, started wagging his tail and eventually went up and licked the person. And that was fine until she began to walk around - but then he seemed to begin to get use to that too. So, it was successful. As opposed to when we tried to "correct" his bad behavior and alpha him. That always seems to make him worse.
Then, I went to do his nails and he started the same thing (as the bath) with the growling and showing teeth. He put his teeth around my hand at one point but barely touched - it was as if he really didn't want to do it but was so scared. All I could think was "what a coincidence - he got away with it during the bath and now the nail clipping". So, I tried to do the alpha thing (even though the behaviorist said not to) - but it didn't work - he got worse. In all honesty, I wouldn't have had the guts to go any further with it.
We are trying to be patient - and I think we have to go through the course with this behaviorist and take her advice. I'll keep everyone posted - who knows, it may work. I sure hope so because it seems every time I try the alpha thing I become more afraid of him. He just doesn't respond to it the way other dogs I have had in the past did.
Well, thanks for all your advice.
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Post by Aussienot on May 6, 2005 23:05:17 GMT -5
Being alpha doesn't mean harshness or constant correction. I didn't mean it to come across that way. I'm glad you found someone to work with who is helping you. Please keep us updated on your progress.
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Post by Brooke on May 10, 2005 19:10:08 GMT -5
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Post by yvonnedono on May 11, 2005 8:44:20 GMT -5
Hi. I did print out a copy of the NLIF information and our "behaviorist" is helping us to retrain and analyze the pups' behavior.
At this point we're learning the eye contact "game" and "touch" as well as trying to get the pups socialized and use to city sounds (we live in the country).
I understand now what you're saying about Alpha - and I think this woman is helping us learn how to be a leader. I'm just trying to overcome some fear I've developed of Lucca at the moment - but we're dedicated to our pups.
I'll keep ya'll posted!
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Post by Brooke on May 16, 2005 20:52:59 GMT -5
I can completely relate to aquiring a fear of the dog you are trying to live with. A dog that not only seems to not get along with house hold members 60% of the time but also with other dogs.
I had this problem with Peeka at first. She was a weim dobie cross. I had always thought dobermans had aggressive tendencies. (Actually very far from the truth.) I was afraid of turning her out wrong if I corrected her. I had always heard abused dogs turn mean. While that can be the case correction is not abuse by any means. As long as it is done humanely.
Positive trainers told me that I would screw her up if I didn't ignore the behavior. When, infact she only got worse doing what I was told to do. They wanted me to fix this problem with a can of pennies and a spray bottle at most. I knew it wasn't working.
I found the greatest group of people...and they taught me what works. I was lucky enough to recruit most of them here after a couple years. Gotta say thanks to them, I have the most amazing dog... ;D
Until you get past your fear of your dog, you will not gain alpha. That can be a hard thing to conqure with a fully grown dog but it's necessary to get past it. Start slow and the rest will come.
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Post by yvonnedono on Jun 15, 2005 15:57:11 GMT -5
Well, just thought I'd drop in a status note. The work we've been doing with Lucca has worked really well. We changed his emotion when people walk into the house by simply feeding him like crazy until he became happy. (we had to tell people not to look at him until he was passed his scared thing) We are now to the point where he basically just barks and looks for food when people come into the house and after about 30 seconds he is licking them. This is a huge improvement. (He doesn't really seem to get scared at all now) The next step is to train him to not bark - possibly go lay on his bed. He is also getting better about mechanical noises because we've been taking him out to the city to hear cars, etc. He has improved greatly in that area too. As far as washing him and doing his nails, we both do his nails: using the same approach to change his emotion. So, while one person clips his nails, the other is feeding him food. We only do a few nails at a time. We avoid putting him, and us, through a major bath by using a hot towel to wipe him down - and then use those scented wipes afterward. Of course, one of us wipes him down while the other feeds him food. This "changing his emotion" concept is working really well to get him over his fear/aggression. He responds really well and we're hoping he'll arrive at a place where we don't have to give him tons of food all the time when performing these tasks. That is the goal - once his emotional response to situations has changed, then we can train him to sit still, or what have you. With regard to my fear of him - our "pet behaviorist" has helped me to understand Lucca. She sincerelyfeels his threats are empty and that I need to laugh it off. And definitely not try to bully him. So, now, if I'm doing nails, or putting on a gentle leader, and he starts his growling - I just laugh and tell him No - and he gets over it. I am also amazed at how much the "watch" and "touch" command training has helped. Getting his eye contact has been a really helpful tool in connecting us - and grounding Lucca. So, its good news. So - we're all getting less scared of each other and its great. He is a wonderful pup - and his brother is great too!
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Post by Am on Jun 16, 2005 21:11:37 GMT -5
Sounds like your trip to the behaviourist was worth it! I'm glad all your hard work is paying off.
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Post by Aussienot on Jun 17, 2005 20:05:27 GMT -5
Fantastic news. Keep up the NILIF and the benevolent alpha way of dog owning. With the effort and dedication you've put in, I'm sure you'll end up with two dogs to be proud of.
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