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Post by Laura on Mar 8, 2007 0:52:56 GMT -5
So I still have my foster dog Addie, the Malinois/Sibe mix, and now that she's hitting maturity, she's really showing Mal behaviors, guarding (me), wicked drive, and the ability to scale a 5'+ foot smooth wall, and that's BEFORE I started doing some prelim Sch. training . I've been bringing her to the doggy daycare/boarding facility where Husky House keeps the overflow Sibes, the place is great, the owners are very dog savvy, and while I'm not a huge fan of group play, she does well there and it does help keep her acclimated to other dogs. She only goes in with the rescue dogs, all of them are very dog social (as most Siberians are!). The problem I'm having? She's fine when I'm not around, but god help the dog that comes near me if I'm the one handling her, she becomes the most aggressive, in your face, "I'm gonna kick your arse first" obnoxious beast you ever saw . Now, we're tallking about a dog that has lived quite peacefully in my home with my pack, has been around all kinds of other dogs since puppyhood, and has gone to adoption events with other dogs just fine. But today, she went ballistic when I took her in to the playroom, went after 3 dogs she knows very well. When I left the room and let the owner handle the intro, she calmed down immediately. Oh, and she's fine with me out in public, but she does wear a prong and a traffic leash because the little snot does have a mind of her own. Her basic obed is good, and has a very high learning ability (we're talking about the same dog who can open the crate door by bonking the flipdown handles with her nose and then pawing the gate until the latches slide over, we now keep locks on the slides ). Ideas? Because really, in all the years I've dealt with drivey, working dogs, she's got me stumped for this one thing, and I want to get a handle on it, NOW.
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Post by sibemom on Mar 8, 2007 8:00:44 GMT -5
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Post by willow on Mar 8, 2007 10:18:08 GMT -5
Laura, what do you do when she does this? The worse thing you can do, IMO, is nothing.
I am no expert in dog behavior by any means, but IMO for some reason she does not regard you as "Alpha" in this situation and feels she must take over.
It sounds like perhaps you are not as confident when at the daycare and she is picking up on your "weakness" and feels she must take over as "pack leader" and has to protect you.
Again, just IMO, you are going to have to let her know in no uncertain terms, that YOU are pack leader no matter where you are and no matter what the circumstances are.
There are two ways you can handle this, depending on how relaxed and confident you feel and how in control of the situation you feel.
If she is normally off leash, and you feel confident enough now that she has displayed this aggressive behavior towards the other dogs when you are there, when you walk in, walk in confidently, standing tall and looking straight ahead, not down at her as if anticipating the behavior and with a no nonsense , YOU are in charge attitude. You cannot tense up or otherwise show any lack of confidence or she will pick up on this immediately. Treat it like just another day at doggie day care when you are not there. ;D
If she goes off on another dog, rush over to her and stop her with touch/voice correction to let her know YOU are in charge of her and the situation. You will have to repeat it until she gets the message and calms herself.
If you are not confident having her off leash, I would have prong/leash on her and when you walk in, walk in confidently with a "no nonsense" attitude, and at the first sign she is even thinking of going off on another dog, correct her both with voice/touch to break her concentration, get her focused back on you, and in a calm state of mind.
You will correct her with touch/voice whenever she even "looks" at one of the other dogs.
You may have to do this consistently several times (or more) before she gets the message and calms down when you are there, and I wouldn't let her off leash until she stops the behavior or until you are confident you can control her when she is off leash too.
You may have to repeat the touch/voice correction when you finally take the leash off to let her know it applies on/off leash and that YOU are in control.
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Post by kaos on Mar 13, 2007 21:54:01 GMT -5
Have just read this thread and am going to make an unpopular comment. I do understand what you are getting at, step into a leadership role and the pup shouldn't feel the need to 'protect' or 'resource guard' you from the other dogs. I also agree with Willows comment that doing nothing is a bad idea as it would simply mean that the dog gets to rehearse the undesireable behaviour. But, I would be very wary of using a harsh correction in this situation as I do believe you risk the dog associating the correction with the presence of other dogs when handler is around - rather than learning oops lunging at other dogs is bad she may simply learn bad things happen when other dogs are around my person and hence become increasingly aggressive. Even if the correction is so harsh that you succeed in supressing the display of aggression, in my opinion you may potentially have created an even more dangerous dog.
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Post by willow on Mar 14, 2007 10:34:17 GMT -5
Kaos, what I am suggesting is not a strong/harsh correction...just enough to get the dog to stop what it is doing, by breaking it's fixation on the other dog and telling it, "Hey! Stop that! That is not your role!" Along with the correction you can say, "Ah, ah" or "Hey" or whatever word you choose, but do not pet or soothe the dog or hold a one sided conversation with him. Once the dog is calm and relaxed you can give affection, but never when the dog is in an excited or aggressive state.
I do not believe by doing this that it will make the dog aggress more around other dogs, as it has been demonstrated time and again that it does not. It shows the dog that you, as Alpha, are the only one who can correct etc., and that YOU are in charge.
Now, possibly if you corrected in such a way that the dog thought the correction was coming from the other dog, than "yes", what you are saying could happen, but again: By clearly letting the dog know the correction is coming from you, the Alpha, it gets the message across.
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Post by kaos on Mar 14, 2007 19:46:49 GMT -5
Unfortunately I have seen a lot of dogs who have growled or lunged at another dog, handler leash pops, and end result is a more dog aggressive dog. Dogs don't need to think the punishment came from the other dog, they simply need to think that the presence of another dog is a predictor of being punished - bingo, you have clasically conditioned your dog to dislike the presence of another dog whilst they are on lead.
Willow you are right though that I doubt a verbal 'ah ah' would be unpleasant enough for this to work against you, but in this type of scenario some dogs may well require more than a verbal interruption to take their focus away from the reactivity. If a verbal interruption was enough to break the focus and have the dog stop reacting and look at you, you could then take the opportunity to offer a reward and have the classical conditioning work for you rather than against you - ie presence of other dogs whilst on lead with handler is a predictor of good stuff.
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Post by willow on Mar 15, 2007 9:10:35 GMT -5
I think we have had this conversation before. Because of that, I don't want to repeat it. However, I will just say that if the owner gives a correction and the dog aggresses worse (and yes, that does happen) it is because, again, the dog does not respect the owner as the Alpha. If a dog respects the owner as the Alpha, because the owner has demonstrated to the dog that he/she is the alpha from the beginning, the dog will not have reached this level of aggression. Aggression does not appear out of the blue. There are signs along the way, which the owner ignores until it erupts in an open display of aggression. I know we have discussed this point too, Nicki for one, bringing out very good points about wolf behavior in a pack. The Alpha wolf is the Alpha wolf because he has demonstrated to the other pack member's that he is the strongest wolf in the pack...and I don't mean physically, although that helps when another pack member tests the Alpha and he has to take it to the point of a strong physical correction to get his point across. The Alpha is the strongest mentally, meaning he is totally confident and capable of carrying out his role. The Alpha's possesses the "energy" it takes to be a leader. Without this "energy", your dog will perceive you as "weak". If you have that "energy" you can be your dogs Alpha. Without it, you cannot. The good thing is: Humans can learn it if they really want to. It starts with understanding that dogs are animals first, dog second etc. and are not human. You must also understand pack structure/mentality. Some people seem to be "born" with this ability/understanding, but in actuality we all have to learn it one way or the other if we want to live peaceably with our pets. The problem is, again: If you think of a dog as human and try to use human psychology on them, it will not work. It also goes beyond simply showing the dog that being in the presence of other dogs, that the owner/handler is a predictor of "good stuff." The Alpha in a wolf pack does not simply shower toys/treats/affection on other pack members, thereby showing them he is the "giver of good stuff" and therefore they respect him as Alpha. On the contrary: It is the other way around. If you do it in that order, the only thing you are teaching them is that the subordinate (you) is fawning over them, (the Alpha). Picture this: There is disharmony in the pack, caused by another wolf. The Alpha rushes over to the offending wolf and gives him the biggest, most meaty bone, because he is Alpha and the giver of "good things". Pretty ridiculous, don't you think? The "good stuff" from the Alpha only comes after they are calm/relaxed around other pack members and that is what they can understand. If they don't "play nice" they are corrected for it, not given "good things".
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Post by kaos on Mar 15, 2007 14:16:59 GMT -5
Willow, as you know I do disagree. The 'good stuff' is obviously given at a time when the dog is calm and not reactive to the other dogs.
There is no mistaking this as human psychology, this is applying simple learning theory as has been proven time and time again - goes right back to Pavlov. I think it is a big mistake to underestimate the power of classical conditioning in animal training.
I wont go into details, just agree to differ.
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Post by sibemom on Mar 15, 2007 15:08:39 GMT -5
I have a question since this is a subject that I JUST LOVE I will start off like this: If training is in a sense conditioning which it is, you condition your dog to respond in the manner you dictate. Some people reward their dogs for complying some people just expect them to do it because they were told to (that would be me 8-)but of course only after they understand what I am asking ) The question is this. If you use a more reward type or GOOD STUFF type approach to curing this, then are you not conditioning the dog to AGGRESS JUST TO GET THE GOOD STUFF Are you not just controlling the length of the outburst by teaching the dog that aggressing and stopping will get you GOOD STUFF That is what K9 handlers do when they work their dogs in an agitation harness, they allow the dog a certain length of time to continute the agitation and then they stop them and the dog gets a reward. You see I don't want that, I want the behavior never to surface again so that is why I take a very stern and direct approach. I have NEVER NEVER NEVER seen a dog become more aggresive when corrected in the right way, UNLESS that dog is a MENTAL CASE or is so dominant that the owner has not yet gained the dogs respect and shown the dog who is in charge. Dogs that do not respond to the corrections of the owner are dogs who have no respect for that owner/handler. If I am working with a dog who has dog aggresion issues, or dog/human aggresion I make darn sure that my timing is point on, my equipment suits the situation, and that the dog understands that I AM THE ONE WHO CORRECTS so there is no mistake WHO POPPED THE COLLAR, or WHO PUSHED THE BUTTON etc... because then there is no way the dog thinks another dog caused the correction, because they hear your voice feel your touch, and understand that this action is going to result in this reaction, you can call that many things but in essence it is "Training by a Motivational/Aversion Method. I use an E collar and when done correctly it is a great way to stop these problems. I also use a pinch collar but some dogs are resistant to that training tool, but for those that are not it works really well. I have yet to have a dog become more aggresive because of a collar correction. I do know it happens, but I have never seen it and I have never had it happen to me . I guess to me this behavior is not something I take lightly, so the method I use to correct this will have to be something that works NOW. I agree with Loey that it does not have to be that extreme of a correction in most cases, but it should be something that leaves an impression.
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Post by kaos on Mar 15, 2007 16:10:44 GMT -5
Yup, if you constantly rewarded after stopping aggression there is a chance that a dog could learn to chain the behaviour and you would inadvertantly encourage the aggression.
However, most trainers who do not use physical punishments to work with aggression would seek to control the situation to prevent a reaction, gradually desensitising hence allowing the dog to work nearer to the other dogs without reacting - ie set it up for success rather than bombarding it too soon for a situation it is not ready to cope with.
There is a school of thought mind you that says ignore operant and apply only classical conditioning and 'open the food bar' as soon as another dog is present and close it when the other dog goes away no matter how your dog is reacting the theory being that classical conditioning will effectively trump operant conditioning and your dog will begin to have a different emotional response to the presence of other dogs. When this happens, ie the previously aggressive dog is no longer resenting the other dogs presence or feeling fearful, the aggression will stop spontaneously.
I can personally think of a few examples of lead aggressive dogs whose owners are definitely seen by the dog as being alpha, and are always punished for reacting to other dogs, but are still what I would call dog aggressive and unpredictable. Knowing the small amount I do about Laura from reading posts here I highly doubt that her foster dog is under any illusions as to who is boss. I just don't believe pack theory solves every aggression issue. Have you ever read 'Bringing Light to Shadow'? Fascinating read about a dog trainer whose (obedience) puppy starts to show dog aggression pretty early on. She tries many things to deal with the problem, including a very harsh trainer who 'hangs' the dog. Directly following that incident the dog aggression increases, and human aggression starts.
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Post by willow on Mar 15, 2007 17:45:41 GMT -5
Before I reply, I am moving to the " debate" section, because "alas" another person's thread has once again been hi-jacked, and I apologize.
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Post by kaos on Mar 19, 2007 15:15:09 GMT -5
Laura - how did you get on in the end with the original scenario?
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