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Post by aheller on Feb 13, 2007 14:57:16 GMT -5
Hello,
My girlfriend and I just adopted a puppy this past weekend, a yellow lab, German shepherd mix (almost 16 weeks), and started crate training him yesterday. We have read through the "Housebreaking your puppy" and "How to Crate Train your puppy" articles on this site and after our first (very long) night, we have a few questions about the process that we could not figure out from the articles.
He did NOT like the crate when we first put it together, he would not even be in the same room with it. Eventually, with a lot of coaxing and quite a few little treats, we were able to lure him in there. He went bonkers the first time, whining and crying and barking up a storm. We let him out once he quieted down and after a few more times doing that, he seems ok with it and will now go in with little or no protest.
A couple things we have questions on:
Should we keep the crate in the room that we spend the most time in so we are near him while he is in there? We tried putting him in the crate in the kitchen while we were in the living room watching TV, where he could not see us, but could hear us and I think that made him a little upset. He put up a big fuss.
When he is in the crate, is it ok to interact with him? Things like talking to him, petting him a little through the holes, something that comforts him? He'll get whiny and I will go over and talk to him and pet him through the bars and that seems to have a calming effect on him, but I don't know if this goes against what we are trying to accomplish by crating him in the first place.
As for the night, last night was a sleepless night for both of us. We left him downstairs in the crate while we went upstairs to bed. I woke up to him barking at 2:30 AM (I had set my alarm for 3:00 AM to walk him) and took him out. He peed, but did not poop. After 20 minutes or so, I brought him back in, crated him up and went back upstairs. Well, he went crazy barking and crying and whining. This went on until about 5:00AM, at which time I took him out again (he pooped this time). But when I crated him after coming inside, he went bananas again. We tried to stick to our guns and not let him out while he was raising a fuss, but he raised a fuss until sunrise at which point we got up and went through the routine again.
What did we do wrong? Should we keep him crated in our room at night? Should we put the crate in an area of the house that we cannot hear him in and just let him bark it out all night? We want to do what's best for the little guy, but we also cannot go through another sleepless night. I do plan on getting up in the middle of the night to walk him also.
Thanks in advance!
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Post by FlatCoatedLover on Feb 13, 2007 18:06:10 GMT -5
It is so great that you are crate training him it will make it much safer for him and make house training easier too. Just a couple of pointers.
1. Do not try to console him when he is in the crate. By doing this you are actually sending him the mesage that it is ok to be whiney and barky in the crate. The only time you should interact with him when he is in the crate is when he is quite and calm. The only time you should let him out when he is whinning is if you think he has to potty and then it should be right outside to potty and then back in the crate.
2. It is a good idea to place the crate in the same room where you are. At night it is best to have it in the bedroom with you. Dogs are pack animals and want to be with their people. He will sleep better when he can hear your breathing and you will be better able to respond if he has to potty during the night. Also it may be helpful to place a blanket over the crate to block out light and movement that may disturb him during the night.
It is likely that you will have several sleepless nights before he gets the idea that he needs to be quite in the crate and even longer before he starts sleeping thru the night without a potty break. Unfortunately this is how it is when you get a puppy, it is like having a baby. To house train and crate train properly you need to "let him cry it out" unless he needs to potty. You can restrict water after 7pm or so and feed him earlier in the evening and make sure he poops before bed which may help also.
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Post by Dom on Feb 14, 2007 9:55:22 GMT -5
It is likely that you will have several sleepless nights before he gets the idea that he needs to be quite in the crate and even longer before he starts sleeping thru the night without a potty break. Unfortunately this is how it is when you get a puppy, it is like having a baby. QFT. FlatCoatedLover gave good advice. For your own sanity, do not comfort him when he is making a fuss. That doesn't mean don't let him out when he needs to potty though. You are not only teaching him that you approve of him whining but you are also teaching him to whine more. Expect him to whine for a longer period of time because that is what you have taught him works to get you to come to his crate. If he whines for 5 minutes and you break down and come to him he knows 5 minutes of whining works. Say you finally decide to put your foot down and decide not to come to his rescue. After 15 minutes of barking/whining you cave in. You taught him, by extended the time of his fit, you will eventually come. I think (don't quote me) we use to let Sadie out around every 2 hours at that age. We set an alarm clock and I got the night shift while my husband got the day shift. Every pup is different though. That was just the schedule Sadie had. We spent a few days timing her potty breaks before we had a starting point then later extended the time. My chow puppy didn't need to be let out for 4 hours (at night) when I first got him. You need to figure out the potty schedule of your new pup and what is right for him. A good rule of thumb, at that age, if they are drinking, eating or awake...they need to potty. Will you be sleep deprived? YEP! Will you have bags under your eyes and look like you have been out partying the night before? YEP! You signed up for the task when you got a puppy instead of an older dog. The good thing is it doesn't last long compared to human babies. And you don't have to save up to put them through college. Congrats on your new pup!
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Post by bobbenson on Feb 14, 2007 10:39:12 GMT -5
My last dog was a whiner. I remember I broke him of it by putting on headphones and listening to music. He didn't know I couldn't hear him.
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Post by Dom on Feb 14, 2007 11:16:25 GMT -5
Good idea! I tried ear plugs once but then I couldn't hear my alarm clock. Sadie was never crate trained but she did throw a fit when we were getting her use to her outside dog run. The rescue we got her from told me she was part Husky. She may not have any physical traits but she sure has the vocal prowess. Ask Sibemom or Laura if you don't know about how well Husky's can vocalize a complaint. We spent 4 days getting her use to it. I sat outside in a lawn chair, reading a book, while she ranted. We had neighbors looking out the window thinking we were beating our dog with all the noise she was making. Thank goodness, she finally understood she needed to be quiet and sitting before we would tell her it was okay to exit. Crate training would have been less stressful on us compared to the 24 hour potty watch we did with Sadie when she was a pup. Elsie is crate trained and it made life so much easier to potty train her. I agree with what FlatCoatedLover said about bringing the crate into the room you are in. A fold down crate is perfect and easier to move around. Some come with dividers you can use to make the area bigger for when your pup grows. Huge money saver. I wouldn't suggest a cloth crate, unless you know your dog isn't a chewer. We have 2 metal fold down crates. One is in the living room and one is in our bedroom. We decided it was easier to have two instead of moving one around every night. The fold down crate in the living room is the one we use for transport to the Vet.
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Post by aheller on Feb 15, 2007 9:53:38 GMT -5
Greetings, all,
Thanks everyone for all the great tips. We have been making some changes in what we were doing based on your input so far and the results have been very positive.
We anticipated sleepless nights and 3 AM walks for awhile. That first night was a doozy, though! Even children cry themselves hoarse and eventually get bored or tired enough to doze off. Not this guy! We waited, but the end just wouldn't come.
He seems to have adjusted pretty quickly and he is doing a lot better now. Moving the crate into the living room helped immensely. Tues and yesterday we started early morning and throughout the day I would take him out every 1.5 to 2 hours. Afterward, I would crate him for a little while when we came in. He did not whine or cry at all. Actually, he did a little bit, but it wasn't distressed whining. It was more like "Hey, let me out of here, I want to be with you guys! Oh forget it, I'm just going to chew on my toy and take a nap" type of whine that we ignored. He quieted down after a few seconds and laid down and went to sleep. But he has not been barking (except to go potty or we leave him alone for too long) and has not been scratching or chewing at all. He has been quite content to stay in there and sleep. Once awake, I would take him outside again. Repeat.
We did have that Nor'easter yesterday, so getting him to go out was not very easy. He did NOT like the wind and sleet at all, but it did force him to go out and do his business very quickly.
We borrowed a second crate for the bedroom. We have been picking up his water dish around 8PM and taking him out for the last time around 11:30 PM. He woke us up around 5 AM that first night (barking and scratching) to go potty, and last night again around 4:30 AM. We have been keeping a log of what times we take him out and what he does so we can hopefully identify a pattern.
As far as the house breaking is concerned, I think he is starting to get it. He had one accident Monday (our fault for not keeping an eye on him) and one close call on Tues (my fault, I could see that he wanted to go out, but I was on the phone and was able to get to him before he went on the floor), but that's it. We have been letting him stay out of the crate for longer periods of time and he has been good about letting us know if he needs to go out. (if it's before the 2 hour scheduled time). We will do the "poopy dance" and scratch at the sliding door in the kitchen if he really needs to go. Not sure how much I trust him yet, but he is definitely coming along. But should we stay in the habit of putting him in the crate each and every time we bring him in? Or is it ok to keep him out and play with him?
So how do we progress from here? His is fine being in the crate with us in the room, but if we leave the room for too long, he starts barking. I am guessing that if we leave the house for a little while, he is going to go crazy. Should we make it a point to crate him and leave for an hour or so at a time (and then progressively longer) to get him used to it? Last night, we crated him alone in the bedroom while we stayed downstairs (after the final 11:30PM walk) before we went to bed and he barked up a storm for almost 30 minutes straight. Should we continue to do this until he is cool with being alone? Also, should we start allowing more time between potty breaks? Maybe 2.5 to 3 hours or so and then progressively longer every day or two?
Lastly, what exactly is the ultimate goal of crate training, i.e. when do you say he is "officially" crate trained?
Thank you all once again for the information, it is very helpful.
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Post by sibemom on Feb 15, 2007 10:59:06 GMT -5
The goal of crate training or at least my goal with Crate training is to prevent unwanted behaviors before the start. When you use a crate that means the only time the pup is out of it is when you are giving them your full attention, this way they can not chew things that could be harmful to them, they can not poop and pee all over your home because normally a dog will not poop or pee where they sleep, they learn to depend on you for everything because they are not allowed free roam of your home, and it gives them a quiet place to go like a DEN, and they need that so they do not get over stimulated. When your puppy goes to his crate when you issue a command like Kennel up, Crate up, or with my dogs TIME FOR BED, and they do this willingly then I would say your dog is crate trained. Right now do not even think about letting your pup have free roam, he is a baby and my dogs do not get free roam of my home untill they are 2 years old, no matter how much I trust them they are dogs and if we go somewhere for long periods of time like more than 2 hours, they get crated. You never want to make their crate a punishment but using it to settle them and give the quiet time IMHO is fine. I would not directly play with your puppy after they have gone outside at this point, I would crate him for at least 5 minutes because he is still learning. Then take him out play with him, WATCH HIM, and then put him back out to potty again. Play stimulates them to go potty so imediatly after a play session OUTSIDE YOU GO. Never make the mistake of crating right after play not at this age because he could very well have an accident and then that would not be his fault. I think the advice you were given so far is GREAT so just keep at it, watch him when he is loose and ignore him when he fusses. Eventually he will settle and get use to his crate and learn to like it, I think you can see some of that happening already ;D Good Luck
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Post by Dom on Feb 15, 2007 14:22:31 GMT -5
I am glad you are seeing progress. Sibemom pretty much answered everything. Like I said, we didn't crate train Sadie. We did increase the time between potty breaks by around 15 minutes every week the first month. After she had more control of her bladder, around 6 months, she was going out every 4-5 hours. She would sleep for closer to 7-8 hours at night without needing to go out. We didn't give Sadie unsupervised, full access to our home until she was a little over a year and a half. That was after we trusted her and had tested her by leaving for different periods of time. Elsie is completely different. We have had her for less than a year and I can't see her ever being out of her crate when we aren't there. She does have more access to the house when we are there though. I semi trust her not to urinate in the house but I will never trust her not to destroy something. She is a heavy chewer and loves to try and get into anything she can. She pulled the fuel filter off the lawn mower last week. She prefers her crate anyway. We leave the crate open during the day and she will go in there to sleep on her own. Like Sibemom said, crate training is for more than just potty training. It is a great tool for other training. It isn't a magic cure but it will speed the training process. It can be used for getting them use to being alone, not finding the JOYS of dethreading the couch, and many other things. It also makes it much easier on them if you are going to board them or you are going to use the crate for safety during car rides and such. They will be more comfortable since they are familiar with it.
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Post by aheller on Feb 21, 2007 14:16:26 GMT -5
Hello,
Just an update and a couple more questions.
We are still in the process of crate training Charlie. He has been doing well, but yesterday was the first day that we have left him alone all day since we got him and unfortunately, he had two accidents in his crate. I am wondering if it's because he was left alone and maybe having abandonment issues? Not sure. He has proven that he can physically hold it for 3-4 hours at a time and he has even been going overnight (6 to 7 hours) the last few nights without waking us up to go out.
Here's the situation. My girlfriend works from home 3 days a week, so she will take care of him during those days, but during the other 2 days, I go home at lunch to take him out. He will not be alone for more than 3-4 hours at a time on either of these days. Yesterday was one of those days (today also).
Yesterday, I took him out at 7:30 AM, fed him and took him out again at 8:00 AM. I took him out one last time at 9:30 AM right before I left for work. I was home by 1:00 to take him out, which is when I discovered accident #1 (pee). I took him out again, removed the blankets from the crate and washed it down with Nature's Miracle. I crated him again about 2:00 and went back to work. I was home by 5:15, at which point I discovered accident #2 (pee again).
Today, the same thing happened. Out at 7:30, ate, out again at 8:00 and again at 9:30. Just got back from taking him out (about 12:45) and discovered he peed in the crate again.
At 16 weeks, should he be able to go for 3-4 hours without going out? Is there maybe another issue at hand here, maybe just the stress of being left alone for that long? For the last few days before this, we were doing "test runs" of our normal days, basically putting him on the schedule that we would be following during regular work weeks and he did not have any problems.
I just want to do right by him and fix this if possible. Any suggestions?
Thanks!
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Post by bobbenson on Feb 23, 2007 1:44:27 GMT -5
This seems as an appropriate place as any to post this question: I got my puppy at 5 mo and started crate training. No whiing or barking issues etc. He makes it through the night (8 hours) although I don't give water to him for about two hours before sleep time.
Here's the problem. I'm home all the time in an apartment. During the day, he is out of the crate. He always has access to food and water. I know his schedule pretty well. He needs to go out every hour and a half or so or he will go to a hallway that is out of view and do his thing. He will ask to go out, the problem is, he sits at the entrance to that hallway to ask to go out. I can't see him there.
The above doesn't apply if he has been playing. It's like the urge to pee is instant. He goes to that hallway and pee's. I was told by a trainer that he may feel that that hallway is "out" at this point - meaning it's ok to pee there.
I put a bell next to the door, trying to get him to ring it when he wants to go out. When I think he needs to go out, I ring the bell, say out, and grab the leash. At this point, he comes to the door and knows we are getting ready to go out, but I don't think this is training him to askto go out!!! He does know what it means, however.
So, at this point what should I do? He is asking to go out (briefly), but not at the door. Yesterday, I started using the word out when I thought he needed to go out, and gave him a treat when he sat by the door - is that a good strategy?.
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Post by Dom on Feb 23, 2007 8:54:56 GMT -5
Aheller,
Is the crate too large? You mentioned that you had to remove the blankets. Are you cleaning them with something like Nature's Miracle that neutralizes the urine? He may still be able to smell the urine. Since Charlie is still in training, I would keep him on the same schedule the entire week. Train him to the schedule when you will not be home since that will be when he needs to be in the crate the longest. You can relax the schedule once he understands urinating in the house is a NO NO.
Bobbenson,
I have never used a bell but I think you need to teach him to touch it so that he rings it. You ringing the bell only means we are going out now to him. We taught "touch" by using a ball on a stick and holding it close to Sadie. She would go to sniff it then touch it. "Touch" Sadie sniffs ball and touches "Good" "Food treat". Later we moved the ball further from her so she had to reach to touch it. We eventually got to the point where we could point to something and say touch. She now can turn our touch lamp on or off on command. She doesn't understand the light going on and off but she does understand when we say touch she sticks her nose on it which serves the same purpose. You may want to add the bell after your dog is potty trained if he doesn't seem to "get it" yet.
We trained both Sadie and Elsie to ask to go outside by saying "Outside?" As soon as they sat in front of us "Good" "Lets go out!" the we immediately went to the back door to go out. Both of them will come and find us then sit near us to ask to be let out. Sadie added a whine if she happens to be sitting behind us and we don't see her. We prefer it that way so we let her keep doing it. Elsie will just sit and hasn't added a whine yet. She really doesn't need to though. Sadie will see her sitting and come next to her and sit then whine if we don't see them. That is another good thing about them being on the same schedule. I wouldn't let your dog ever wander out of your sight at this point. Many bad habits could develop.
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Post by aheller on Feb 23, 2007 12:03:26 GMT -5
Hi Dom,
I think the crate is a good size. We actually had to get a smaller one than the one we originally had. When standing or laying on his side, he takes up about 3/4 the length of the crate, so he has a little leeway to grow. We didn't want to get one too small, or he would outgrow it in no time.
We have been washing the crate with Nature's Miracle, but not the blankets, they have just been going in the washing machine. That will be next on the list. Since we already washed them a couple of times, I think we're going to have to soak each one completely and rewash. Then if it happens again, we will pre treat only the affected areas. Curious, would bleach work to neutralize the urine? Or should we maybe eliminate the blankets altogether and just put him in the bare crate? I don't want to do that, but maybe it would work. I have read some people recommend putting nothing in the crate, but I want him to be comfy.
As I said, we put him on the regular schedule that he would need to follow earlier in the week (for 3 days) and he did fine (no accidents), that's why I found it strange that on the actual days he needed to follow that schedule, he had accidents in his crate (4 times, twice a day during each 4 hour time period that he was in there).
Both my girlfriend and I were home yesterday and again, he was on the same schedule. He did fine in the morning, but had an accident in the afternoon (even with us in the room). We did notice that when bringing him out that he has been peeing a lot more often. Not sure if he is peeing or maybe marking? He caught on to the "if I pee, I get a treat" thing and would pee a few times each time he went out, just to get a treat. We have since stopped giving him treats for peeing, but he still pees more than once (usually 2 or 3 times) when taken out, so we were worried that he may have a UTI. He is also still on medication for a bacterial infection, so I wasn't sure if that was messing with his body chemistry.
In the meantime, we will wash the blankets with Nature's Miracle and just keep moving forward with the schedule we have implemented for him and hope for the best.
Thanks for all the info once again!
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Post by Dom on Feb 23, 2007 15:37:39 GMT -5
I wouldn't worry too much about putting a blanket in the crate. I mentioned before that we had two crates. The one in the living room doesn't have anything in it. That is the one we leave Elsie in when we leave. She prefers not having anything in THAT crate anyway. She dragged the blankets out the few times I tried to put something in it. I would put bedding in a crate if a dog had something like hip problems but your puppy should be fine without anything. It will make it much easier to clean. I am not sure if I mentioned this to you but they do make wire (some fold down) crates that offer the option of placing a divider in it so you expand the space as the dog grows. They are much cheaper than having to replace a crate when your dog gets bigger. You can also block off a portion of a larger crate with a box or something. I forgot that your puppy was recovering from the bacteria infection. If he started having the accidents after he was sick, it could be the infection or the medicine causing the problem. A UTI, as you mentioned, could cause it too. Our Vet let us take a fresh urine sample to them to test without us bringing our dog in. It is hard to tell if Charlie doesn't understand yet or it is a medical issue but I like to rule out medical first. I can't give you a lot of advice on potty training. I never had much of an issue with any of my dogs. Elsie was the first one I thought I would have problems with but the crate solved it for us. The rest was limiting their freedom and always having them in the same room I was in so I could keep an eye on them. I hope Charlie is feeling better on the medication for the bacteria infection.
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